Quote: keith larson

I asked about fish oil while I was in the store and she pointed out a bottle of Omega 3-6-9.

You are correct to skip that and order what Leerburg sells, along with some Vitamin E.


Here's a copied and pasted post of mine from a week or so ago.

QUOTE:

Supplementing with Omega 6s is not what we want to to.

What we try to do when we give Omega 3s is move toward restoring the balance between the fats that promote inflammation (which is, after all, a necessary healing response) and the fats that work to keep inflammation under control. These are 6s and 3s, respectively. The modern grain-fed diet has virtually eliminated the 3s that 150 or even 100 years ago would have been found in the meat and fat of pasture-fed farm animals almost as much as wild grazing animals.

So when you see something (like an oil supplement) that advertises "perfect balance of Omega 6, 3, and 9," then you can be assured that either the manufacturer is misguided, or it's meant for someone who gets NO other fat in the diet, or it's deliberately trying to trick us into buying the cheaper, plentiful, already superabundant Omega 6 fats as a "supplement."

Another important thing is that if it says "Omega 3s," we have to remember that the ALA from flax, canola, etc., is not the same benefit to dogs that they are to humans, and that the food is unlikely to contain fish oil. Also, fish oil does not stand up to the heat that's necessary to make commercial food.

A long way of saying that, IMHO, dogs need fish oil (plus the Vitamin E they use in processing oil supplements) no matter what food they are getting..... with very rare exceptions. END

Also, Keith, please don't forget that you have to give Vitamin E when you give an oil supplement.

Connie,
What is the strength/dosage you give for each of the supplements? (Fish oil and Vit E) We use Cod Liver Oil ourselves; have you ever used that for your dog?

 Quote: jim tompkins

Connie,
What is the strength/dosage you give for each of the supplements? (Fish oil and Vit E) We use Cod Liver Oil ourselves; have you ever used that for your dog?

No, no liver oil. In the dosages I give, that would be skirting too close to the top limits of a couple of oil-soluble vitamins (the kind that stockpile in the body).

I want fish body oil. It doesn't necessarily say "body" or "muscle" oil, but if it does NOT say "liver," then it's not liver oil.

I use 1 gram (1000 mg) of fish oil per ten pounds of dog weight. Some recommend a gram per 20 pounds. (1 teaspoon is about 4.75 grams, or, for me, about enough for a 48-pound dog.)

I use 200 IU of mixed tocopherols (vitamin E's best form, IMO) for a small dog and 400 for a big dog.

The vitamin E comes in gelcaps, and my dogs eat them in their food.... no piercing and squeezing, which I used to do like a moron. They act like the gelcaps are wonderful caviar.

http://leerburg.com/47.htm
http://www.leerburg.com/53.htm

I am curious about the dose for fish oil, and how much is too much.

I have been giving the dogs 1 gram (1000 mg) of fish oil per ten pounds of dog weight and 400 IU vitamin E.

Above you mention that some recommend a gram per 20 pounds. I absolutely trust you judgment and research on this one, but why the discrepancy and what constitutes an over dose? What would be the side effects? Would a dog with poor skin need a “boost” and then back down to a normal dose?

I am not planning to change any of my dogs’ doses, but am just very curious. Thanks in advance!!!

 Quote:

my dogs eat them in their food.... no piercing and squeezing, which I used to do like a moron. They act like the gelcaps are wonderful caviar.

My male (below) LOVES his gel caps, and they now act as a training treat. (His fish oil comes in the caps too.)

Well, my POV comes partly from canine nutritional anthropology, or history.

There was a time when we (and the dogs) naturally had a diet that would yield about a 1-to-1 ratio of Omega 6s and Omega 3s.

Omega 6s are fats that promote an inflammatory response. This is necessary, of course, as a primary mechanism for sending healing blood to a wound. Omega 3s promote an inflammation-suppression response, which also is a primary mechanism for reining in inflammation that has run amok or that is not serving a healing benefit.

That is very oversimplified; the point I take from this is that we (and our dogs) evolved eating a pretty balanced 6-to-3 diet.

Now we eat a diet that's superabundant in 6s. Poultry and red meat that's fed grain instead of pasture and poultry-yard bugs, etc., no longer store the Omega 3s in their fat and tissue that they did. All the soy and corn and other oils that are most commonly used in processed foods are also heavy in Omega 6s.

Mediterranean (people) diets have two-to-one ratios of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids, I have read in research of Omega 3s. In the United States, the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids in diets is more like 20 to 1.

PositiveDogs.com says: Suggested dose is 1000 mg (with 180 mg EPA and 120 mg DHA) per ten pounds of body weight. END

Shawn Messonier (The Allergy Solution for Dogs, sold here and very good, IMO) and other DVMs I have read recommend at least a 5-to-1 ratio.

He says:
While many veterinarians, including me, use fatty acids for a variety of medical problems, there is considerable debate about their use. One part of the debate concerns the dosage to use. Due to their anti-inflammatory effects, I routinely use large doses of fatty acids when treating atopic dermatitis in pets. Like most doctors, I recommend 2 to 4 times the label dose, as research in allergy treatment indicates that the label dose on most products is too low to exert an anti-inflammatory influence.

In people, research suggests that the effective dosage is from 1.4 to 2.8 grams of GLA per day, or 1.7 grams of EPA and 0.9 grams of DHA per day. It's hard for people to take that much using the supplements currently available because they come in a much lower dose. If this dosage is correct, translating this dosage to dogs (adjusting for weight) means a 50-pound dog would need to take 10 or more fatty acids capsules per day, depending upon the supplement. END

He is discussing a combo 6 and 3 supplement there.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1662&articleid=666
says: Previously, it was thought that the ratio should be approximately 15:1. Current recommendations are for ratios of 10:1 to 5:1. END

http://www.judyshealthcafe.com/fishoil.htm
says: Though some pet diets may include Omega-3 fatty acids, virtually none include satisfactory amounts of the most important Omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA. Many pet foods contain primarily Omega-6 fatty acids from vegetable oils resulting in a highly unbalanced ratio of Omega-6s to Omega-3s. END

This site uses the 1000 mg per ten pounds ratio:
http://www.b-naturals.com/Feb2005.php

Lew Olson says: I would start with 1,000 mg of the salmon or fish oil, at one per 20 lbs of body weight daily, then increase to 1,000 mg per ten pounds of body weight after a week or so. End He adds that mackerel, etc., would be beneficial IN ADDITION TO the oil. (His capitals.)

Dr. Messonier also says:
Fish oil supplementation is very safe. The most common side effect seen in people and pets is a fish odor to the breath or the skin. Because fish oil has a mild "blood-thinning" effect, it should not be combined with powerful blood-thinning medications, such as Coumadin (warfarin) or heparin, except on a veterinarian's advice. END

TheWholeDog.org says:
The lack of Omega 3 and the excessive amount of Omega 6 in the modern diet ultimately create degenerative conditions. The store-bought processed foods still do not supply an adequate amount of Omega 3 to properly balance the ratio. Many nutritional supplements are still promoting and loading up the Omega 6 (LA) fatty acids -exacerbating an already severely imbalanced and unhealthy situation. The best solution to insure our pet's health is to provide a high quality Omega 3 Fish oil supplement along with a premium diet. END


The Grizzly instructions for use work out to about 1000 mg per ten pounds.

BUT I have read other sources that recommend 1000 mg per twenty pounds.

So .... I don't know if this helps. I hesitate to say "Ask your vet" because I find that very few vets have much nutrition background. How about "Ask a vet with a nutrition specialty" ...

I am NOT a health professional. There are researchers and vets who back up the 1-gram-per-10-pounds dose, and I've had what I think are very good results with it, but in the end, it's really JMO.

I found one of the gram-per-TWENTY-pounds dosage recommendations (and remember that that dose is still a whole lot more than most dogs will ever get): Dr. Susan Wynn's anti-cancer protocol for dogs includes about 45 mg of fish oil per pound of dog. That works out to about 900 mg per twenty pounds.

Connie
Do we ever need to be concerned about an Omega 3 overdose? Say if my dog chewed into the bottle and ate 20,000 mg? Or if I fed my dog 4000 mg instead of the usual 1000 mg dose?

 Quote: debbie bruce

Say if my dog chewed into the bottle and ate 20,000 mg? Or if I fed my dog 4000 mg instead of the usual 1000 mg dose?

I looked in FatsForHealth.com and found this:
QUOTE: Is it possible to get too many EFAs?
It is not possible to "overdose" on EFAs. In thousands of studies worldwide, no serious side effects of EFA supplementation have ever been reported. Minor side effects may include: bloating, nausea, upset stomach, burping, and loose stools (diarrhea). To avoid these minor side effects, take EFA supplements with meals, start with lower doses and increase gradually, and/or divide the daily dose into smaller portions. Dividing the dose helps absorption and minimizes side effects. END QUOTE

BUT (BIG BUT) this would NOT be true of fish liver oil. You know how we always talk about liver oil NOT being what we give, and NOT what the Leerburg diet is referring to? The oil-soluble vitamins in fish liver oil could indeed cause a toxic overdose.

Here's a post that includes links to info about the myth of hemorrhagic stroke from fish oil overdose.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/296333.html

I do think that there can be long-term excessive doses. But you refer to a one-time accidental ingestion of a large amount..... and the only thing I found was possible diarrhea.

Again, I'm not a health professional. And I would avoid such a large dose, just as I would avoid any sudden intake of extra fat.

JMO.