Quote: Amber Morgan

Many people think there are only two options...allow the dog to continue to attack OR euthanize it. Tess, there is another option...and that is training...mostly for the OWNER!

Yeah, that was really my point. Not many people see such situations for the dual issue that they are: dangerous, aggressive dog AND inexperienced, unattentive and often irresponsible OWNERS... this is the combination that leads to dog bites. The dog gets blamed and the owners assume it's a lost cause. Doesn't have to be that way...

 Quote: Amber Morgan

Owning aggressive dogs require !!constant attention!! You screw up one time and guess what, babies get bitten. There is no further margin for error.

Bingo! It's a lot to swallow, especially if you've been skating along thinking everything was fine, but in the end, when the fit hits the shan, you have to own up and take responsability. Some of this is as easy as never letting the dog interact with children, but a lot of it is just as you said - CONSTANT watchfulness and leadership. If the owner isn't prepared to make some serious changes and start handling this dog with more attention to the aggression, she needs to find it a new home. I suppose that would be my reccomendation too.

~Natalya

 Quote: kristel smart

This may be an unpopular answer....but if someone snuck up on me when I was sleeping and "all hades was breaking loose", I might bite too.

I got the impression that the "all hades breaking loose" was the dog biting the child, not that there was other disturbances. I don't think that the dog's response was that of a vicious killer bent on eating children. But, like I said earlier, it does point to a dog that bites first and asks questions later. With this kind of dog, the owner has to be extra-cautious. Given the dog's response to the puppy and the baby...this is not a patient or tolerant dog. Some dogs are, some dogs aren't. And the ones that aren't should have limited exposure to children, and zero interaction with children without good dog sense.

This dog obviously does not like unpredictibility, yet it lives in a house with two young children in a neighborhood full of kids. It just smells like potential trouble to me. There was a lesson learned the hard way here.

 Quote: kristel smart

I would work on the training and supervision angle before resorting to the death-sentence for what sounds to me like a defensive reaction. Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh but it's the kind of thing I've seen a little too often lately. Anyway, just another opinion. I hope everything works out.

I don't think the dog should be euthanized either. It's often a reaction done out of fear and guilt and often very sad and unnecessary. But steps have to be taken to take into account this dog's temperament.

And yes, dogs should have respect for children and children should have respect for the dog. To think otherwise is to court disaster. I hate seeing people letting their babies pull on ears or tails or poke eyes, thinking it's really cute. Not cute. Stupid and mean.

I'd be interested to hear what the owner's reaction was when the dog bit the baby. I"m sure it was pure chaos, but I'm wondering what, if anything, the dog learned from the experience. It could have bearing on future issues.

I have a similar story with my older male GSD. The ONLY time he has ever snapped at a child was when he was sleeping. It happened once with a good friends ten year old son that was visiting.

They owned a beagle mix and that dog was used to being hung on, etc. Mine was not, however. There were no stitches involved thank goodness and the dad was very understanding and taught his son about safe dog etiquette after that. He was lucky because the little scratch he did get was close to his eye.

I don't think the dog should be euthanized, but they will have to be ready for possible law-suits if they don't take precautions from now on. Take the time and effort to keep the dog away from situations that are not totally in their control would be a start.

Tess, we don't really know anything about your friend, her kids or lifestyle but I can tell you what we do. First My dog is my dog, I love him but he is not one of my kids. Andy is not allowed on the furniture at all. My kids don't lay on the floor with him. When he is laying down they are not allowed to go to him, they call him to them and don't touch him until he sits calmly. I have my daughter feed him some of the time, he sits a couple of feet away and after she puts the bowl down he's released to eat. He has to sit back away from the door until everyone is in and then he gets to come in. His crate is in the family room and the room also has a child gate. He's always near us but still has a certain amount of separation. And like I said earlier I don't mind locking Andy up when kids come over because supervision is more then just being close by and sometimes I just dont feel like having to pay close attention. Just like your friends dog Andy is friendly and meets people all the time. I just don't take a chance with kids.

 Quote:

I don't think that the dog's response was that of a vicious killer bent on eating children. But, like I said earlier, it does point to a dog that bites first and asks questions later. With this kind of dog, the owner has to be extra-cautious.

In total agreement. Hopefully the owner will step up and put in the work.

 Quote:

And yes, dogs should have respect for children and children should have respect for the dog. To think otherwise is to court disaster. I hate seeing people letting their babies pull on ears or tails or poke eyes, thinking it's really cute. Not cute. Stupid and mean.

Yes, and this is the sort of thing I've seen way too often. It's unfair to the dog to expect him/her to put up with all sorts of abuse from kids in order for him/her to be considered a "good" dog. And dogs don't really care if a child is tripping over them by accident, or pulling on them because the child doesn't know any better. They just know that it hurts or scares them and they want it to stop. This is where the owner and/or parent needs to step in and prevent this sort of thing.

Most of the dogs I've had wouldn't take kindly to any of that nonsense or to being startled awake by a toddler, including the two that I had that were therapy dogs. But they could never be called aggressive by any means. Wide awake they were very sweet and friendly.
I wonder if the same would have happened had the dog been at home with the owner's own children? It IS possible. In any case, I agree that now that this has happened some very definite steps need to be taken in order to prevent it from happening again. Had the owner of the dog been paying attention, or the parents of the child been vigilant, it could have been prevented altogether.

Hi Tess, your friend should be the one reading and posting the question since it's his/her dog, you can learn and he/she will still be wondering what went wrong. From the sound of it your friend should rehome the dog to a more suitable home, maybe a more experienced owner. 3 of mine are really social dogs but i would NEVER EVER! let a kid crawl up to them or on them, that's just plain stupid and reckless on the dog owners part and the parents of the kids part. It's crap like this that starts more and more idiotic dog laws that seem to never blame the humans,
AL

Hi again, all.

Thank you for all of the advice. I am sharing all of this with C, my friend. She is (obviously) just heartbroken about the whole ordeal and I'm just trying to help her through it.

Cookie is a well-mannered dog. She doesn't get on furniture, goes to her bed and lies down during dinner, sits to be petted and when greeting us at the door when we visit. She does lie on the floor with the children while they're watching tv or whatever in the living room. I wasn't, and I'm sure that C wasn't aware that this was a dangerous thing to allow. The only naughty thing that Cookie does is if she is unsupervised for more than 5 or so minutes and food is left down, she's been known to snag a nibble. It's like she can resist for a while, but then those good smells override the good manners.

"All Hades breaking loose" was when the bite happened. C was just sitting there watching T-ball practice with her sleeping dog at her feet. The child crawled up from behind C. She never saw the child until after she was bitten. I agree that the parent of the child bears responsibility in this as well.

When the bite happened, obviously it was scary and confusing. C reached for Cookie's collar and put her down on the ground. Cookie immediately rolled over onto her back. Lots of yelling, accusing and screaming "What kind of person brings an attack dog to the park!" and threatening suit on the part of the parent of the child. Lots of crying and apologizing on the part of C. C hauled Cookie off to the minivan. Cookie belly-crawled the whole way. She knew she had done something bad.

The animal control officer came out to take a report and quarantined Cookie to the house for 10 days, after which they will come out and temperament test her.

C's state of mind at this point? Scared, uneasy... she loves this dog but loves her kids more... Her kids, 2 girls 6 and 8 are good children. They have never been allowed to abuse Cookie. But they're kids, you know? You never think they'll color on their car seats or try to flush GI Joe's down the toilet, either. Our families spend a -lot- of time together so my kids, also 6 and 8, are exposed to Cookie as well so this is partly my drama. -I- have to be sure that my kids are safe.

I explained it to C that it's kind of like having a loaded gun in the house. Lots of people have them and manage the risk safely. If you are willing to manage the risk and be ever vigilant, you can do that. But you can't ever slip up. I don't know that it's possible to be that vigilant and for Cookie to have any quality of life. Her "thing" is to play out in the yard with the kids. She just LOVES them. Geez, it's not even my dog and I'm getting emotional... it's just like you had a BB gun in the house and all of a sudden after 4 years you find out you have a .357 magnum that will remain loaded at all times. Big responsibility. One you wouldn't have knowingly taken on with your family situation.

I hope that information clarifies the situation. I -totally- appreciate all the help you are giving us. Keep the advice coming. It's really helping.

 Quote: tess sanders

Our families spend a -lot- of time together so my kids, also 6 and 8, are exposed to Cookie as well so this is partly my drama. -I- have to be sure that my kids are safe.

I explained it to C that it's kind of like having a loaded gun in the house. Lots of people have them and manage the risk safely. If you are willing to manage the risk and be ever vigilant, you can do that. But you can't ever slip up. I don't know that it's possible to be that vigilant and for Cookie to have any quality of life. Her "thing" is to play out in the yard with the kids. She just LOVES them. Geez, it's not even my dog and I'm getting emotional... it's just like you had a BB gun in the house and all of a sudden after 4 years you find out you have a .357 magnum that will remain loaded at all times. Big responsibility. One you wouldn't have knowingly taken on with your family situation.

Tess, we feel for you. I was bitten badly by a dog that I'd played with and around when I was a child. I had to take rabies shots and that's a whole OTHER story, considering how long ago it was.

I say that to establish my background in dealing with dog bites on a personal level. Your friend, C, has to be watchful. You said it yourself, there can be no more slips, if for even a moment. In a house with the happy chaos of kids, that there WILL be slips is more of a given; not on C's part, but on somebody elses part.

Sounds like Cookie does have a chance to be turned around with constant supervision. You may suggest to C that they get a crate for Cookie, and put it where the kids are in the house. When outside playing and Cookie is romping with them, an adult MUST be present and Cookie should have a long line on her with the end held by said adult. Even with that, a dog can bite with no warning. It may be that Cookies romping with the kids days are over. This is not a bad thing! It's just a realization that a dog is a dog. They are not playmates for children; they are companions that need to be respected.

At any rate, I with C the best with this. She should get in touch with a reputiable trainer to help Cookie. They should keep up with the training after finished with the professional trainer as well.

Then, after a few months of this, if C's feelings are that she can't/won't keep up with the watch, Cookie should be re-homed to experienced owners, preferably without children.

Luck!
-Jim

 Quote:

It may be that Cookies romping with the kids days are over.

I think this is a must. Letting cookie romp freely with the kids is the opposite of the type of supervision needed. I don't intend this as advice to you, but I personaly would not give up the dog. For me it's very easy to control all contact my kids have with Andy. Thats why the crate is so important. He's not locked away like you may think but there are just times you don't want to have to pay attention. Now that you know how Cookie can react it all depends on the kids.

 Quote: tess sanders

The animal control officer came out to take a report and quarantined Cookie to the house for 10 days, after which they will come out and temperament test her.

Tess,

This meand that "C" has ten days to work with the dog and start good pack leadership now. It sounds like the dog is pretty normal except for the kids startling her from what you write in your posts.

I would recommend that she teach the kids manners around the dog and make sure that resting time is in a crate and that the kids know to stay away form the dog while she is resting. My grandkids know which dogs are off limits and they do not test those boundries because I have taught them carefully about dogs. The Dutch Shepherd is the dog that they like and he is great around kids, although they are not left unsupervised with him.

Dogs are dogs and I am sure that if any of my dogs were startled out of a sound sleep, they would get a bit snarky also. So "C" is not alone with her issue.

Now that the issue has been made known to her, it is a responsibility to be dillegent and aware of her surroundings and her dog. I really feel for her, being yelled at about bringing a "bite dog" to the park is unfair as the parents of the little girl are just as responsible. I can see things being said out of shock and anger, but hopefully the parents calmed down enough to realize that "loose" children at the park are not accetable either.

We had a three year old wander off from the park a while ago and got hit by a car. The parents were watching a softball game and not paying attention to their kids. Injuries were minimal as the car was not going very fast. Chaos was reigning when I stepped off the ambulance as the parents were berating the driver.

Courts ruled the driver was not at fault as she was going UNDER the speed limit by 7 mph and the parents are now being investigated due to other healed injuries on the child and reports from neighbors that the kids were left alone while the parents partied.

IMHO, "C" had her dog on lead, the dog was under control, the child wandered into the dogs space and the reprocussion of that was unfortunate. Lesson learned should be to the parents of the unattended child. "C" obvioulsy knows now that she has to be careful, so I feel she has learned her lesson.