Sorry to interupt, but what is SA & NILIF ?

 Quote: susan tuck

Sorry to interupt, but what is SA & NILIF ?

Separation anxiety, and "Nothing in Life is Free."

 Quote: cheryl zovich

He knows "Knock it off" and will shut up for ... oh, maybe all of five minutes if I really threaten him within an inch of his life. But gee, that's such a pleasant way to live! (And I'm sure my neighbors are going to report me to the SPCA some day: "But officer, I know I heard her say she's "gonna break every bone in his body" if he doesn't stop whining!)

To me five minutes is enough time of quiet to reward. Why not walk by and treat after five minutes, and leave if the Koda starts whining?

Also, when you say "...if I really threaten him within an inch of his life," what does this include? Do you really tell your dog that you will do bad things to him? Remember, he doesn't speak english, so everything you are saying is going by real fast. In addition, you are rewarding him, just like Connie said, by giving him what he wants, which apparently is a scolding. Don't give it to him! And this leads me to--

Does this bad behavior make you angry? I have never told my dog that I am going to hurt it, and she has made me mad! I think your anger at the behavior is becoming apparent to the dog, and it makes the dog even more uncomfortable in there. I know that all emotions flow down leash, so I would assume that the same logic applies to just being near the dog.

When I get mad, the first thing I do is say "Handler mistake!" because, guess what?, it always is! And this always makes me smile for some reason, which avoids me giving an improper correction to the dog, and cheers my attitude, so I can get on with constructive training.


Good luck to you!

 Quote: sandra faye johnson

We also discussed a holistic approach to giving Koda a calming medication along with behavior modification. He gave me his phone number if I wanted to talk to him further about this.

Sandra, please don't give into the temptation of medicating the dog for this. It's the same thing as using one of those "gentle leaders" when walking your dog. Sure, it often works, but the dog hasn't learned anything! Some people don't think it matters how it happens as long as the dog does what they want. But I really do.

On a practical level: As soon as the meds are gone, the dog's going to revert to his original behavior.

Also, your dog doesn't need all those chemicals floating around in his body. Sure, if you give a baby lots of cough medicine every time he cries, that will probably get you the sleep you want. That doesn't make it the right solution though.

Some (IMO, unethical) trainers will talk the owner into medicating the dog, throw around some little "exercises" and then take credit when the dog stops the problem behavior when in reality the dog's just doped up.

Sometimes the situation appears to be worse when in reality it's a last ditch complaint before the dog gives up and accepts it. If you read through this site, you'll notice that it's filthy with people having the same sort of issues that you're having, some even worse (tearing crates up, barking, clawing until their paws bleed).

I had the same problem with my GSD whining in the crate awhile ago. Patience, consistency and extra exercise will solve most of these problems.

Something to remember is that dogs often do well with schedules. If you have the kind of life where you can exercise, feed, and crate Koda at roughly the same time every day, and keep him crated for around the same period of time, that may help.

From what I've read of your other posts, you seem to be really dedicated to fixing your problems with your dogs. Please don't lose that dedication now and just medicate. To do that is giving up and you don't strike me as someone who just gives up. Hang in there!

Sandra, you say your husband is now totally ignoring the dog except to let him out to potty? I don't see how this is being helpful to the dog. You also mention now that Koda spends time with you in the yard and that Koda shows dominance with your husband.

From your previous posts I thought it was you that Koda bared his teeth at and showed dominance to, not your husband.

So you are spending time with Koda, but your husband, who the dog is bonded to, is ignoring him? I don't see a reason for your husband to ignore Koda. I'm not sure that you'll accomplish what you want by doing this. It sounds like your husband has been eliminated from participating in establishing groundwork for the dog.

Have you read Ed Frawley's article for establishing groundwork with a dog? It's http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm The isolation period is not meant to be forever.

Connie,
Thanks for the assessment! I'm trying to take a hard look at what I'm doing that could be "rewarding" him for unwanted behavior.

He is 2.8 years old. FWIW, He's always had an overwhelming need to vocalize about every little thing. (Birds in the trees, planes flying overhead, a warm summer breeze, crickets chirping .... you get the idea.) He's a shrieker who loves the sound of his own voice. He doesn't need much of a reason to make noise because he gets such a kick out of hearing himself shriek. If I do "happy talk" he gets excited and shrieks. If I praise with too much enthusiasm, he shrieks. If I get excited about anything, he shrieks. This would almost be hilarious if it wasn't so darn frustrating. (And ear-splitting) Essentially, I've learned to be very calm and efficient around him as that is the only thing that keeps a lid on his vocal chords and energy level.

Typically, he yips, whines and shrieks whether I'm in the same room with him or in my office down the hall. Bottom line, if I'm on the same floor of the house and he's crated, that's his cue to start fussing. He doesn't always fuss right away; sometimes he'll go for varying lengths of time before he decides he's had enough of the crate and wants out. But once he makes up his mind he's done ... forget it. The noise never completely comes to a halt. He can lament off and on for 2-3 hours.

I don't respond at all. I don't talk to him, yell at him or even make eye contact with him if I'm nearby. I simply pretend he doesn't exist and go about my business. When I really do need to take him out I try to wait until there's a brief lull in the noise so I'm NOT rewarding him by releasing him from the crate while he's still carrying on. If I'm going to tell him to "knock it off" that's usually when I'll do it (Or tell him "quiet") because that WILL shut him up for a few minutes. At least then I can let him out while he's being quiet and I can praise him for those few minutes of good behavior.

He does know what "quiet" means. I have a rule that goes like this: Dogs do not go outdoors without a sit-stay (usually at the top of the basement stairs, but not always) and they must be quiet and under control before the door opens. No yipping, barking, shrieking, leaping or dancing around. This boy knows "quiet!" and can do it on command even when he's pretty darn excited, which is why I find the crate scenario so frustrating. He will also obey the quiet command when crated while waiting his turn for agility class. I take two back-to-back agility classes with two different dogs and the dog that is not in class is crated. When it's his turn to be crated he behaves perfectly, even though he can see me (and several strange dogs) running around about 50 yards away. If I put his crate where he can't see us he is still willing to be quiet when asked. Good boy!

So what I seem to have is a dog who will not settle down in his crate and shut up if we are both on the same floor of the house. I ignore him when he does this and try to praise and/or reward him if/when he complies. My timing is probably off. I can't tell you how many times I've sat in my office waiting for him to shut up so I can go reward him. If he is quiet for a few seconds and I get up to go reward him, he starts whining the minute he hears me stand up! Which tells me he's sitting there on high alert, just listening for me to come praise him and (hopefully) let him out! So then what? When I get to him he's in a full-fledged fuss and I certainly don't want to praise or reward that! If I go sit back down then I may have to wait another 30 minutes before I get another chance to reward him ... and if the same thing happens (he hears me coming and starts whining) then it becomes an endless cycle!

When he was younger I used to crate him and sit in the same room. If he could shut up for a minute I would get up and reward and praise him. Gradually, we built up the period of silence until he would not whine at all. Then I repeated the whole procedure with me still in sight, but not in the same room. Then I progressed to being out of sight in another room. I think this is probably what you do to desensitize a dog with SA: Tiny baby steps, then repeat everything for a slightly different setting. He would do OK sometimes, but then he regressed back to the point where he would fuss and whine even if I was sitting in the same room. So we started all over again. And again. And again. I've done this whole process I can't tell you how many times now. It works for awhile, then we regress.

I really think he simply does not want to be in his crate if I'm home, and he's POed because I'm not letting him have his way. Of course insisting I "win" is important, but winning is a little like hitting myself between the eyes with a peen ball hammer ... yes, I get to be the boss, but at the cost of my sanity.

Rick:

 Quote:

"...if I really threaten him within an inch of his life," what does this include?

Actually, I don't usually threaten my dogs, but I have been known on occasion to mutter, "Stop fussing or I'm going to break your legs!" I'm not yelling, I'm saying it in a normal tone of voice. In fact, I say it to break the tension ... like you say "handler mistake." It's a release valve that puts things in perspective: He's whining ... would I really break his legs for whining? Nah! But the absurdity of it makes me chuckle!

 Quote:

Do you really tell your dog that you will do bad things to him?

Of course! My dogs and I have a warped sense of humor! If you think mine is odd, you should see theirs! They roll in stinky stuff, they eat horse poop, they roll on their toys, chase bugs, stand in their water bowl and lay on their backs with their feet in the air and their genitals exposed .... Sometimes I say mean things to my dogs. If I use a normal tone of voice and they don't speak or understand English, am I going to damage their psyche?

FWIW, I used to have an African Grey parrot who, out of the clear blue, started saying, "I'm gonna kill you!" Now given I've never said anything THAT mean to my animals, I couldn't figure out where on earth he learned to say this! One day I called my avian vet and low and behold, the voice on the other end of the phone was a dead ringer for the voice in my living room that kept saying, "I'm gonna kill you!" Come to find out, when I boarded the bird (there) during vacation, they found his habit of flinging food a mite annoying. The point of the story? Voicing our frustration is probably not all that uncommon ... I'm just glad my dogs can't talk!

 Quote:

Does this bad behavior make you angry?

Should I be laying on my couch to answer this? (LOL!) No, my inability to find a working solution to this nonsense pisses me off. I don't blame him and I don't get mad at him, but I won't BS you, I don't like listening to two hours of yipping and whining. I've raised 10 companion dogs and he's the only one who has totally stumped me with this problem. It's irritating and grates on everyone's nerves. I don't need to crate my dogs all that much, but I'd really like to correct this so we can have some peace and quiet when we do.

Cher

 Quote: Cheryl Zovich

When he was younger I used to crate him and sit in the same room. If he could shut up for a minute I would get up and reward and praise him. Gradually, we built up the period of silence until he would not whine at all. Then I repeated the whole procedure with me still in sight, but not in the same room.

I would go back and do this again, because since then he has learned that all he has to do is go to an extreme level of antics to get the reaction from you he wants. He has learned that if he can't get it at level x, then he must escalate to level z.

That's why it gets worse before it gets better: The dog tries all his previously successful tricks, at every previously successful level.....

Also, this is the type dog who you can't give excitement to, as you noted. Excited attention to a high-energy excited dog is gasoline on a fire.

Standing like a statue while he jumps around and shrieks, even with your back turned, and then rewarding calmly when he starts to settle down..... sounds like the way to go here.

Edit: Sounds like you know all this but need a resolve not to cave, no matter what the provocation. He's not being a brat; he's doing what he has learned to do.

Quotes by Rick and Cheryl:


"To me five minutes is enough time of quiet to reward. Why not walk by and treat after five minutes, and leave if the Koda starts whining?"

"Also, when you say "...if I really threaten him within an inch of his life," what does this include? Do you really tell your dog that you will do bad things to him? Remember, he doesn't speak english, so everything you are saying is going by real fast. In addition, you are rewarding him, just like Connie said, by giving him what he wants, which apparently is a scolding. Don't give it to him! And this leads me to--"


I think some of this is getting mixed up. It wasn't me who said I threaten within an inch of his life. That was Cheryl.

Koda has dominated my husband from day one. Some of the things Koda would do is hump my husband's leg, jump on his back, bite him on the hand, push his body into my husband on walks, push his rear up to my husband to be petted and whine and bark when Koda couldn't be near my husband. My husband's explanation for allowing this to happen was, "He's bonding with me". I tried to tell him THAT isn't bonding.
Koda bared his teeth to me and snapped at me because I tried to remove a bone from him when it was time to pick up bones, chewies and toys, and the times he snapped at me was during a correction he didn't like.
The reason my husband now ignores Koda is because Koda still tries to force himself on my husband wanting to be petted and wants to be his shadow to the point of wanting to go in the bathroom with him. My husband is passive/aggressive. His way of interacting with a dog is affection, affection, affection. When the dogs don't mind him, he uses an angry, frustrated voice. He will say the dog's name then yell a correction and I have asked him many times not to do this. My husband doesn't want to walk the dogs and when he HAS, he only walks around the block and allows Koda to walk ahead of him.
In my opinion, I feel it's better that my husband ignores the dogs rather than undo everything I am trying to do to help them.
No amount of talking to my husband seems to work. He takes offense to everything I suggest no matter what the subject is. He was raised by a very controlling mother and a silent father who never intervened. My husband acts like a victim (poor me) any time we discuss something that even sounds remotely like an attack.