Quote: Michael_Wise

Are dog root canals very successful? I know human root canals are sometimes prone to problems, and would think a dog's would be even worse.

Well, my granddog broke that same tooth (if I am picturing it right) the same way (a recreational bone, which made me stop giving recreational bones forever), and he had a root canal and crown at Tufts.

This is a working earth dog, so his teeth have been well-used in the years since.

That's just my own anecdotal experience, of course, but it certainly turned out well.

Well, after calling a half dozen practices, the soonest we could scedule an appointment with a specialist is the end of November! I asked the dentist whether this lag time would impact whether the tooth could be saved or not (if it is indeed that serious) and she said probably not, though there is always a possibility...

Connie, Tufts was on my list to call and they told me they weren't taking any new dental patients as their dentist was leaving for another practice in Acton, MA - that Acton practice was ALSO on my list to call, and they ended up being the only ones that could fit him in soonish (THE most renowned guy in the area was booked out till MARCH!!!). So for future reference, Tufts is currently not the place to go for tooth emergencies (I'm assuming they'll hire someone new at some point though...).

One question that kept me up all last night that the dentist couldn't really answer (other than telling me that they frown on RAW diets...) is : IF even a tiny portion of pulp is exposed by the break (which I'm not exactly sure of at this point), will the fact that Oscar eats RAW make it more likely that the tooth will become infected??? Obvioulsy, dog's DIGESTIVE systems do fine with all the added bacteria of a RAW diet, but this would essentially be a main line to his blood stream - NOT a good place for bacteria. Anyone have any thoughts?? I'm starting to get really spooked, but I REALLY don't want to switch him to kibble... what a headache...

~Natalya

Oh, Natalya. I'm so sorry about all of this.

Did any of the specialists say they could get him in earlier if something suddenly changes for the worse?

 Quote: sarah morris

Oh, Natalya. I'm so sorry about all of this.

Did any of the specialists say they could get him in earlier if something suddenly changes for the worse?

Thanks Sarah - I'm really bummed out about it too!!

From what it sounds like, a sudden change would be one of the following options:

1. The tooth will become infected (I will probably only know once it's really taken hold, as Oscar is a stoic bastard and is uber reluctant to show pain/discomfort) at which point, if the specialist can't see him, the humane thing to do is have the vet pull it asap and I don't think infection will get him in to the specialist faster...

2. The tooth will BREAK again, most likely a terminal break that will leave only extraction as an option (kind of need the tooth intact to do a root canal) and again, his regular vet can do that

To be honest, the specialist didn't sound too worried about something happening in a months time (they see patients who've had fractures go for YEARS without their owners noticing, and the tooth is still hanging in there...). She also said she's seen a few RAW fed patients wait a while without problems. Does this make me stop worrying - NO WAY! But there isn't much else I can do but wait... I DID put myself on their cancelation list, so there's a chance we could be seen earlier, but that's about all I can do to expedite things.

Adding to my anxiety is a bit of annoyance - BOTH the regular vet AND the specialist made a point of telling me, once they found out I fed RAW, that they were NOT in favor of it - for this very reason (broken teeth). The specialist especially (being focused on teeth) was totally anti bone - ALL BONES. So I suppose all the wild carnivores out there are behaving VERY negligantly every time they eat and should really be more careful about their dentitian by switching to the fruit of kibble trees and canned mush bushes!! Granted, I won't ever give another dog a marrow bone, but Oscar's chicken dinners are NOT the cause of this, nor will they ever be. The other items high on her "no-no" list for chewing are: ROCKS, ICE CUBES and NYLABONES - Now THAT sounds unnatural!

So I suppose that makes me a bad owner... nevermind the fact that the vet was A. impressed that I had even noticed the broken molar (becuase a lot of people never check their dog's teeth!) and B. the specialist thought I had dentistry experience because of the way I described the break and the questions I was asking about treatments, risks, etc. I monitor my dog's health like a hawk, thoroughly research every medical issue that comes up with him, and I don't let him eat rocks - but apparently I'm still not doing things correctly because I feed him a species appropriate diet... just makes you want to strangle the "professionals" sometimes...

Sorry for the rant.

~Natalya

 Quote: natalya zahn

One question that kept me up all last night that the dentist couldn't really answer (other than telling me that they frown on RAW diets...) is : IF even a tiny portion of pulp is exposed by the break (which I'm not exactly sure of at this point), will the fact that Oscar eats RAW make it more likely that the tooth will become infected???

My gut answer is no. The reason: Infections from food pathogens cause trouble after they have been given a warm and hospitable environment (the human digestive system is one) for colonizing. This takes some time (part of the dog's edge for avoiding food infections is their short system, as well as their strong, bone-processing stomach acid). So I'm looking at the mouth as being a very short stop for food on the way through, and not a place where pathogens can colonize without saliva constantly washing them down the pipes.

But I totally understand your concern. You are thinking "What if the food already has a sizeable pathogen colonization? Can it then enter the bloodstream directly via the exposed pulp?"

My gut feeling isn't good enough. I would call a holistic vet and ask. Are you by chance in the western part of the state?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I would call a holistic vet and ask. Are you by chance in the western part of the state?

We just moved to Cambridge, which is just over the river from Boston proper, so no, not the western part of the state. However, I am really in the market now for an unconventional or holistic vet that won't frown on my decisions about diet and vaccinations - I'm willing to drive a ways, and certainly make a phone call!

If you know anyone, feel free to PM me...

Thanks!
~Natalya

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

We just moved to Cambridge, which is just over the river from Boston proper, so no, not the western part of the state. However, I am really in the market now for an unconventional or holistic vet that won't frown on my decisions about diet and vaccinations - I'm willing to drive a ways, and certainly make a phone call!

If you know anyone, feel free to PM me...

Thanks!
~Natalya

Yes, I grew up not far from where you are (Wellesley).

I do know someone, but too far (in the Berkshires). Have you tried Cindy's list?

(sorry this is long...)

Okay, so the "dentist" was able to squeeze us in after a cancellation this afternoon - so we didn't have to wait until nearly December to know what we're dealing with... And let me first say that this dentist was a VERY nice woman. Obviously had LOTS of years in the field and knew her stuff when it came to surgically fixing teeth, and I trust that she'd do a bang-up job on a root canal... really.

After a pretty long appointment (the exam was short - the anti-raw lecture was long) it is as I had worried - the tooth will either need to be extracted, or be surgically repaired via root canal. What a bummer. I think the initial vet gave me a glimmer of hope that it might not be that bad only because he really had no idea what he was looking at and couldn't tell the anatomy of a dog tooth from a hole in the wall... how is it that I knew more from 30 minutes of online research than he did after a decade of education??

I digress.

What REALLY bummed me out is NOT the fact that I will be paying around 2 grand for a ROOT CANAL - for my DOG (that sucks, but I'd sell a kidney for him...), it's that I got an EARFULL from the dentist about the way I'm feeding Oscar. I was frank from the start and said that while I would never give recreational bones again (or rocks, or ice, or any of the other things on her list), I was NOT going to change his diet. I explained that I had done thorough research for myself and had just decided that a raw diet was the best thing for my dog - risks and all. I also had a battery of questions in relation to the damaged/reparied tooth and the fact that he will need to use it on bones again...

After telling me that Oscar was too far from a wild dog (in behavior and lifestyle) to make the raw diet a "natural" feeding option for his anatomy (huh?), she basically insinuated that all of her expensive procedures would be MOOT if I didn't stop feeding BONES - ANY BONES. She gave me stories about endlessly RE-root canaling and capping the teeth of canids at the local Zoo because they were being fed bones in their meals, and stories about other dog owners who continued to give recreational bones even after their dog's teeth kept breaking... She even threw in a snide general anti-raw comment about how I "of course already knew about the possibility for perforation (of the intestines)..." Cripes, you'd think I was giving him RAZOR BLADES for dinner!! And don't get me started about how she advised me I should be brushing his teeth twice a day..

I'm just depressed. It's hard enough to deal with a hurt dog and the idea of cleaning out my checking account to fix it, but for some reason I didn't feel like I needed to be chastised for giving my dog an alternative (and I'd argue BETTER) diet. Of COURSE I want to do what's best for him, but she wasn't really willing to work with me on how to make the best of what I'm already commited to. In effect, she just told me she'd spend my money however I wanted (extraction or root canal) but she clearly didn't have faith in any optimistic future because I feed raw. Sigh.

I've scheduled to have the surgery done to save the tooth (price difference was surprisingly minimal between that and a hole in his mouth, so I figured it was worth a shot...). What I'm struggling with now is if I should change the way he eats his food. Should I start GRINDING the bones into his meat? I figured poultry bones were probably still soft enough, even for a compromised tooth - am I wrong? (dentist sure thinks so) Should I not let him have harder RMBs from other sources, like pig, sheep, cow, etc.? Do I just have one of those intense gnawers that can't be trusted not to try to crack open a cement block if he thinks there's food inside?? I hate that I'm so easily frightened by authority figures, but I'm honestly a little freaked out that I'll spend all this money and the "fix" will fall apart in a few months... Damn you scare tactics!!

Anyone have any good pep talks for this kind of thing??
If nothing less, thanks for lending me your ears...

~Natalya

How about giving chicken necks and backs for the RMBs and keeping the variety in the form of non-poultry muscle meats?

Wouldn't that be a good compromise while his mouth heals, at least? (And certainly, you could still feed the whole bird and, if you chose to, grind the leg quarters.)

Both of these things are things I already do with two of my dogs, one of whom is an older guy who came with quite a bit of tooth damage (but whose teeth are actually becoming clean, BTW, after a year on his raw diet; all I had hoped for was not increasing the plaque deposits) and one who is a "crack that damn bone OPEN" guy.

I am not saying that it's necessary; I'm just saying that it might give you some peace of mind.

I don't have any trouble with this. I buy whole birds and the butcher grinds the back ends for me. No charge. If backs are on sale I get a bunch and use them for a while. They all get variety from fish and non-poultry muscle meat, as well as yogurt and occasional eggs.

I am all for doing what we have to do to feed a great natural diet and also accommodate older teeth, crazy teeth-breaker dogs, or whatever....

I'm not sure what I would say to the dentist. I guess part of the dental POV is that the ONLY raw-fed dogs they ever see are dogs who have hurt a tooth.... no matter what the real-world stats are.

As far as perforated intestines go -- I don't know if I'd bother pointing out that the problem (if it's food) is generally a cooked bone, whether it's given to the dog or stolen from the trash.

Recreational bones -- that's just something I don't do. I don't think the dog loses anything, either. That's JMO, and I know PLENTY of dogs who have had them all their lives and been just fine, so I certainly don't think you should have seen this coming.

I don't know what I would say to the dentist. Maybe the truth, but maybe not. I don't know what would be the best thing to make a dent in her occupationally-skewed POV. Maybe I would say that I was still thinking about how to continue feeding a fresh raw diet ("because it's the most important thing, and I certainly would not sentence my dog to a lifetime of bags of dry cereal") while protecting his teeth, and that I didn't know yet whether it would be by feeding the cartilage-y soft backs, etc., or what.

 Quote: natalya zahn

I didn't feel like I needed to be chastised for giving my dog an alternative (and I'd argue BETTER) diet.

Alternative?

You mean alternative to bags of eternal-shelf-life cereal?

THAT's the "alternative" diet.