heh, natalya....our poor squished fingers! never again.

kimberly - i think i'm definitely going to have to bring the DD collar in one way or another. i'm getting better at reading teagan's behaviour in this regard, but as she's settling into life with me she's changed about this - at first she was only inappropriately interested in little dogs, and it seemed very prey-driven. this new behaviour has developed in the last week and a bit. i kept giving her the benefit of the doubt, i've decided not to do that anymore....

 Quote: Kimberly Bunk

I'm going back to the original question here. Only you can determine which collar is best for your dogs temperament. With the prong you can easily make a situation worse on certain dogs temperaments, either by escalating their aggression or the dog could shut down. I think it's best to go for the DD collar for aggression, because in my one dogs case it's the only collar that stops her fixation on the other dog and back to focusing on me. With either a prong or a DD I would use a backup collar either with a coupling to a flat leather or connect the leash to a loose choke collar.

The DD is not used the same way as a choke collar so it should not injure the dog like other posters said.

A few words of advice, start learning to read the dogs body language, the instant she starts correct her for it, this is the most important thing to learn when controlling a dominant dog.

Kimberly

Great post Kimberly! That last paragraph is really the key.

I have to always remember that my dog's breed is worlds apart from most other people on this forum - hounds just aren't shepherds! My comments on the DD collar vs. the prong were from my personal experience only, with a pretty different type of dog... you're right though, it all comes down to the UNIQUE dog temperment in question.

~Natalya

i'm wondering now if i shouldn't order a DD collar (well, i've decided there) as well as one of the i think they're agitation collars with the handles, to give me an extra grab on teagan if she does get overly fiesty.

i could try them in combination with potentially the prong, and just keep on working on catching her b/f she starts - my concern there is that i'll never be 100% (though i'd like to think i could be) and i don't want to accidentally trigger up her drive/aggression.

thoughts? is the collar w/handle silly?

Jennifer,

You need to be able to control your dog with one collar. The DD collar should be sufficient if it is used correctly as well as the prong or an e-collar.

The agitaion collar may not be the best collar since IF she redirects she may be able to come "around the collar" and get you. Not that she will, but it is a possibility.

My dogs only wear the agitation collar when backtied and I do have a fursaver as a back up. This is to make sure if the agitation collar comes unhooked somehow, the fursaver keeps them backtied so they do not get loose. I do not use the AC for regular leash work.

thanks carol. i'm going to get the DD collar and see how that goes. worst comes to worst, i use it in conjunction w/the prong as a back-up, but like i said - while i'd like to think i'll always perfectly catch her early enough that the prong doesn't trigger her drive, i'm thinking it might be a good idea to build in a margin for handler error on that point, all it takes is a bit of distraction....

....that's a good point about the agitation collar, i hadn't thought of that. i wasn't planning on attaching the leash to it or anything, i was just going to use it as a nice strong handle when needed. i'd been thinking of it b/c i found the handle on her hiking harness useful for swinging her away on tuesday when we ran into an off-leash dog whose owners apparently didn't care teagan wasn't friendly....that or who were stuck in slow motion. i may get a nylon one that's cheaper and experiment with it, but i'll see - i think her behaviour in this regard is in flux right now as she settles in and we work out pack order, she's smart so i'm hoping she learns quickly this isn't acceptable behaviour, i don't see why she couldn't, drives or no. i doubt i'll ever trust her around strange dogs, but since i don't trust strange dogs that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

and i was also thinking some fur savers (luc currently wears a decommissioned choke chain as a collar due to fur issues) AND new prongs. the one we have has large links, the prongs leerburg carries look SO much nicer.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

i was just going to use it as a nice strong handle when needed. i'd been thinking of it b/c i found the handle on her hiking harness useful for swinging her away .....
she's smart so i'm hoping she learns quickly this isn't acceptable behaviour,

The only thing is, you need to make sure that you are not grabbing hold of the collar and letting it flow to your dog that you are tense due to a potential "outburst". If you are anticipating the outburst that will flow directly down the lead or through the handle and cause your dog to tense up as well.

If you see the situation coming and know her body language, then it is best to move away to a place where she stays calm, do some obedience work with her, play the look at me game (this is a good one) because then she will learn that if something is coming she needs to "look" at you for guidance and not take the situation into her control......I hope that makes sense.....let me know if I confused you.

no, that's true, and hopefully i'd have full control through the collar and lead.

i don't want her to sound like she's crazily aggressive, she's not, but she can be aggressive at times and she's a very engaged dog. i noticed on our walk after work today, no-one wanted to walk by her despite her long-coated fluffiness (they kept on annoyingly going over to luc's side....i think b/c his tail is wagging and he's in a coat he looks less threatening, whereas she's got her ears forward and seems to be making constant eye contact - while heeling, it was a very good walk (and i used the martingale since i'm all paranoid about the prong breaking now), but like i said, she's very engaged).

on tuesday we moved away but the dog followed. but i did realize i needed to handle that situation slightly differently, even if the other dog's owners were dumb.

you didn't confuse me, good advice! thanks! i like that better than just doing the 'leave it!' corrections, which generally stop her from straining towards whatever she's after, but don't always refocus her on me (it's split, sometimes yes, sometimes no) - that's another great way to catch her before she starts, and yup, reinforce that i decide when we can play ms. manners

stupid computer just erased my edited comment as i was finishing. ergh.

i was going to note that the other problem i have with her is that she sometimes doesn't seem to give off body language cues - for instance, saturday we were walking past a lab straining and barking (terrible manners) and i was very proud how calm my dogs were ignoring the lab, especially as i don't see teagan as a dog to be trifled with. actually, teagan (and i was trying to watch her ears/tail/etc) waited until we got level with the lab and then turned and went for it - the kid with the lab stopped mid-laugh and screamed - i stopped teagan before she got within striking range, but that seemed to be her strategy - act cool like she didn't care until she got within striking distance. i may be giving her too much credit there, and i probably did miss subtle body language cues - i'm really trying to watch her to figure them out - but if it doesn't sound crazy, it was almost like she acted to calm to keep the lab off-guard and then just turned on it (the lab did shut up, i'll give her that). so i do have a lot of learning in that regard, right now i'm as carefully situationally as i am with respect to her body language, but i should be careful about tension down the leash.

Jennifer -

If I may add in my 2 cents as someone who has dealt with dogs that have reacted very strongly to correction with a prong or any other collar other than a DD...

One thing is definitely to be watching body language. Keep your eyes on her ears. You mention she is very alert and that her body language seems to be confrontational in how she presents herself to other dogs as dominant. Some dogs can react very strongly to a correction, no matter if they have already gone into aggressive mode or not. Some dogs become aggressive towards you for a correction. This tends to be a pack issue/dominance problem in most dogs, the dog is correcting you for correcting it. The action of the prong is like teeth on the dogs neck, that is one of the reasons dogs respond so well to it, and also why dogs can respond poorly to it. It goes something like this: Teeth on neck - challenge/attack on them - fight back - bite you.

Work on Teagan with focusing on you during the walk, not on her surroundings. You as the alpha should be the only one displaying dominant body language. As Carol suggested work on the "look" or "see" or "face" command (to get the dog to look you in the face) Some dogs it isn't so much as looking to you for guidance it becomes ingrained in them that when they see another dog, they get praised/rewarded for looking at you, you create an association of: see dog - look at mom - get reward!

Change things up a bit to make her pay attention to you and what you are up to, not what every living thing around her could be doing. If you notice she is looking at everything, sniffing the air, ears forward, do a sharp turn, bring her attention to you. Ask for a sit, a down, a shake/paw, a front, anything. Go back to the walk, as soon as her attention leaves you, another turn, or a stop, or an about face, or she is being told to sit or down, etc. The walk is about exercise, yes, but about communication and about YOU, not Teagan, It isn't Teagan's walk. It's your walk that Teagan is being allowed to accompany you on.

Easier said than done in a lot of cases, but Teagan sounds like she is generally a good dog. You can try taking a favorite toy with you to help her focus and distract/redirect her if she seems to be flipping into a prey response towards a small dog or animal. I would take Teagan out alone, without Luc, to be better able to completely focus on her. Look at the walk as more of a training session than a walk that could be interupted by a problem.

Also.. know that any feeling you have is transmitting to her no matter if you are holding the leash or touching her or not. If you are nervous, she will know this, and will respond accordingly. Give her the benefit of the doubt even if you do not trust yourself and worry about your timing. Remaining calm and focusing on her instead of the dogs you could possibly encounter, will prevent Teagan from feeding off of what you are feeling in a negative way.

For prong corrections on a dog that becomes aggressive towards me, or is escalating because of the correction, I find that moving backwards and correcting back and up enough to cause the dog to loose balance can help in diffusing the situation. You are not moving away from them, you are bringing them back with you, away from the problem. Moving back allows for a stronger correction but with a prong you do not want to lift the dog as you would with the DD, it would be for purposes of causing the dog to lose balance only.

Unless all you have is the prong and the dog continues to escalate and is becoming very aggressive and is trying to, or succeeding in biting you, then I would indeed hang the dog with the prong as a last resort to keep from getting torn up.

I would suggest a DD since she has already escalated. Timing is important but with aggression, a dog that escalates and just becomes more aggressive with a correction, for safety issues, should be moved to a DD. If you correct her while she is showing aggression, she is not always/necessarily more likely to escalate than if she had only just noticed the other dog. If she is not already beign aggressive, she could become defensive towards you for your correction, as her attention was on the "intruding" animal, you corrected her, either catching her offguard, or causing her to become aggressive towards you (as her auto-response to correction/an aggressive action towards her). Not saying this WOULD happen, but it depends on the dog, the situation, etc.

A dog that just moves up in aggression level once, is more likely to do it again, than a dog that never has, no matter the timing. You are either causing her to become aggressive to begin with, or making her more aggressive than she already was. It could be an auto response to become aggressive about a correction - you want to stop the automated part, you want to break the cycle.

I also agree with using more than one collar, I would start off with the prong and the DD. I actually use 2 leashes when I am introducing the prong to young dogs. I have a traffic lead, 12" is usually plenty more than enough for a larger dog, shorter is better the taller the dog is. Leave your regular lead on the prong, traffic lead on the DD. Adjust the prong to right directly behind the DD, this shouldn't be an issue if it is already correctly fitted, as the DD is not a very large/wide item. I know some may argue about this because they are both supposed to be in the same spot, but the prong is still effective this way, I have used this method.

Ok, so it was more like 5 cents

Watch for lips pursed forward and tight, ears erect and forward, staring at the other dog and how her body is in line with you, slightly angled outward at the head rather than in line with you or angled towards you.....subtle changes like this are cues as well....

sorry for the late reply on this one Jennifer but I wanted to add one more comment to the fray...

Levi is dog aggressive for sure, whenever I have had the prong on him in these situations it DOES NOT calm him down it only INTENSIFIES his drive towards the other dog. I do not have this issue when I use my choke collar. When budget allows I am DEFINITELY going to purchase a dominant dog collar. I think Levi associates the pain from the prong even more with the other dog. When I use the choke he is forced to calm down because he KNOWS I am controlling him, not the collar feeling like he's getting bit or something. Just my two cents worth.