Quote: Jennifer Marshal

You can WORK WITH a DA dog being PP, absolutely. As long as you never challenge that dog you can seem to be best friends to the inexperienced eye. You can coax a DA dog with treats and toys and good things when it is not in drive and get good results as long as you never become an authority threat to that dog, BUT you have not solved anything.

this is interesting. teagan has been pretty good lately, but i've also heavily manipulated things to try and remove her encountering situations that set her off. so we're going through a 'lull' period, and i really couldn't say if she's starting to respect my leadership since there also haven't been any real challenges in terms of authority b/c i've been controlling her environment as much as possible before she gets out in it.

it's funny - some of you might remember i posted about my friend w/the dangerous dogs, including the dog that had sent 3 people to the hospital. when i wrote down all the bites (cause there was more) and injuries, it sounds really bad - but she's always like 'he's not really aggressive'. with teagan, i always want to say 'she's actually really a very nice dog' but then i write down her behaviour in the last 5 weeks and....it looks kinda bad (though of course, excusing me would say it could be worse). even though i'm trying hard to work on her behavioural issues, there's still a big part of me that wants to deny they exist.

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

... After working with a fear aggressive dog utlizing possitive methods no corrections I thought that just bonding with and being kind to a dog using treats and toys could solve any problem. .... Well, a handler aggressive dominant female rottweiler taught me a lesson. Treats don't matter. Toys don't matter. Kind words don't matter. Commands don't matter. Very few things of a possitive nature even cause a blink of an eye to a truly aggressive, and dominant dog. .... You can WORK WITH a DA dog being PP, absolutely. As long as you never challenge that dog you can seem to be best friends to the inexperienced eye. You can coax a DA dog with treats and toys and good things when it is not in drive and get good results as long as you never become an authority threat to that dog, BUT you have not solved anything.

You are absolutely correct, IMO.

Heaven help me for saying so...but if any of my dogs ever bit me, for any reason, it would be ON! Not only would I have that dog wired to an e collar but I would have a dominant dog collar on it also. I have never tolerated any dog trying to rule my roost. Call me ignorant, call me naive, call me stupid but in such a case the anger would take over and I would make sure I was armed with any and all tools the next time this kind of thing happened. Then, knowing me I would probably set the dog up to do it again so that we could have a different ending the second time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would want revenge or anything like that but I dang sure would be prepared the next time it might be an issue and willing and ready to make an equal impression on the dog as it had made on me. Granted, I have never owned a dog that has the "kill the human" mentality. In such a case, I would probably have to rethink my stradegy completely. So, I guess I'm just talking out my butt right now..lol--shhh...pretend I'm not here...

 Quote: RobbinMann

So, I guess I'm just talking out my butt right now..lol--shhh...pretend I'm not here...

LOL!

no, i totally get your point. i was furious when teagan bit me. i also thought she'd eat me if i did any 'alpha roll' 'hold her down' dominant type physical behaviours. didn't have the DD collar then, and i don't keep her purely on the flat collar in the house anymore. learnt my lesson!

and now - i am more careful around her, and part of me thinks - why should i be? why should i modify my behaviours? she should! but i am wary at the thought of directly challenging her.

edit to add: and it's probably not a good thing i'm wary at the thought of directly challenging her. i am getting more confident about handling her and doing things i expect she won't be a huge fan of, but i've really been doing the 'avoid confrontation' with her and work with her in that, but does that help? am i really dealing with the issues?

not that i want this thread to be all-teagan, she's just the example i know....

I don't think you should have to directly challenge her unless it comes up of course. But i don't think you should have to be "more careful" around her. It shoudl definately be the other way around.
But lets clarify what you mean by that first.
Do you mean that YOU are changing things you do so that you don't set her off?
Or do you mean that you avoid circumstances that may set her off so that you won't have to deal with it?

don't take this post the wrong way. I am not saying you're a big wuss and don't want to deal with her problems.
I totally understand where you are coming from.
Although my dog is not as aggressive as your girl. He gave me a few runs for my money when I first got him. Me being 5'2 maybe 110 soaking wet and him being 80lbs and alot quicker, i sometimes found myself avoiding situations that i thought may set him off. And it didn't help things in the least.

Alright, put another stupid stamp on my forehead but in my house, I am the alpha female and no other! I have a female that constantly tries to dominate me in body posture, climbing on me, jumping on me, standing over me if I am laying on the floor, nudging me, etc. No matter how much I don't accept this behavior, she still tries to do it! It is a never ending struggle between the two of us but I NEVER let her have the last word, EVER! (okay, I'm guessing folks are forming some serious "she's psycho!" opinions about me right now)

So for me and my personality, Jen. Dang right I wouldn't change to suit her, each time you do, she wins a notch on the board, uh uh, not for me but then again I'm not the shinniest apple on the tree nor do I have years of experience with dominant dogs, I do know that no matter how dominant either I would win or the dog would go. If that makes me a monster, I am sorry but i will not let an animal control me or my house or the members therein. JMO. take it with a grain of salt, please. lol

generally the second - avoiding circumstances that have set her off in the past.

....but i'm being a lot more careful around toys. even though i always 'gave' the toys, i no longer allow her to play with them without me, which seems to be working. and okay, maybe toys aren't a big thing, and i don't want to be a wuss with her, b/c i think she'd pick that up and push it, but i also feel quite strongly that i don't have the experience to win a physical confrontation with her. and i guess my concern is that if i set her up and correct her....am i setting her up to bite me? what would i be doing there?

 Quote: robbinmann

Alright, put another stupid stamp on my forehead but in my house, I am the alpha female and no other! I have a female that constantly tries to dominate me in body posture, climbing on me, jumping on me, standing over me if I am laying on the floor, nudging me, etc. No matter how much I don't accept this behavior, she still tries to do it! It is a never ending struggle between the two of us but I NEVER let her have the last word, EVER! (okay, I'm guessing folks are forming some serious "she's psycho!" opinions about me right now)

So for me and my personality, Jen. Dang right I wouldn't change to suit her, each time you do, she wins a notch on the board, uh uh, not for me but then again I'm not the shinniest apple on the tree nor do I have years of experience with dominant dogs, I do know that no matter how dominant either I would win or the dog would go. If that makes me a monster, I am sorry but i will not let an animal control me or my house or the members therein. JMO. take it with a grain of salt, please. lol

well, i've changed how we play w/toys. and i do put the cats away most of the time when she's out (she's always on a leash). are those big deal things? i have a feeling changing how i'm playing w/the toys w/her actually might reinforce that it's my toy, not hers, but i could be wrong.

otherwise, i don't let her push me around - when she jumps up on me, i shove/knee her down, i go through doors first, i try to do all the groundwork stuff w/her. i'm just trying not to recreate the circumstances in which she bit me - does that make sense?

edit: and outside, we avoid other dogs, so she doesn't get set off, rather than going right past them and allowing her to get all dominant or prey-aggressive with them (if a small dog). i'll cross the street to avoid another dog. but i thought that was okay as well. i do correct her for those bad behaviours though, don't get me wrong. and when i took her hiking w/a group, she was never more than a foot and a half away from me - attached to me at all times.

First I would just like to say in response to Robbin, you aren't an idiot and if you are talking out of your butt, man, can you teach me? I might make some money at parties that way :laugh: just kidding, I never party, I'm a dud lol.

Anyhow, my only thing would be that anger can cause more problems that it solves and yes, most definitley easier said than done, anger in dominance situations is a natural response for a vast majority of people, but if you can harness that angry energy in being productive and FAIR in correcting the behavior, maintaining the upper hand and utilizing your experience and knowledge of the dog you are working with, then its ok if you can't 100% control your anger (though, yes, it should be attempted but is difficult) If you know in the situation that you can win and the danger/safety factor is not such that you or the dog is going to be seriously injured, then correcting the behavior is the best course of action.

Also I will say that females challenge female handlers more than male handlers, and males challenge male handlers more than female handlers. In the wolf world at least, the sexes are in different categories, the females primarily scrap amongst themselves and the males with themselves, highest ranking female below the alpha is at the same level as the highest ranking male below the alpha - to a point. The authority of the opposite sex is challenged less than the authority of the same sex, though nobody gets off scott free just for being the opposite sex and dogs of the opposite sex from the handler will still most certainly challenge that handler. It's all situational and dependent upon the other factors in the dog, environment, and handler/handling.

Ah, and to Jennifer now :-D I do not blame you for avoiding situations where you know Teagan has the potential for becoming aggressive. Controlling her atmosphere and environment is part of being alpha, you are at the stage of protecting your dog.. mainly protecting her from herself, and protecting yourself in that you are still unsure that you are capable of really being able to take control if something goes wrong. I think that for now, being prepared and ready in case something does happen out side of your control, is fine until you can gain the confidence and perhaps experience and mentoring from someone who has dealt with these behaviors before.

Until you are comfortable handling her and are confident that you really can, I think avoiding situations with Teagan that you are not comfortable with yet, is a good idea. BUT don't let this become habit, and continue your ground work with her. Don't become so stuck on avoidance that you slink back inadvertently into being subordinant to Teagan. Pick your battles and you are more likely to win the war.

avoidance. gotcha.

unfortunately those will probably be your best training tools. Situations that will set her off so that you can enforce (thats a bad word, but couldn't think of another one) your leadership.
But, i will say if you don't feel confident enough to win a physical confrontation with her, than definately don't try to initiate it.
As im sure you know, you need to come across as confident as all get out in everything you do with her. If your confidence slips, she's going to pick up on it and the one single time she wins....you've taken 10 steps back.

Its really a tough call.
I do agree with Robinn....i wouldn't let her get away with anything and if she pushed it, i would push back 10 times harder.
Its something that you would need to do.
Do you think that because of what happened before, her coming up the leash at you, maybe caused you to think you don't have the experience to handle another confrontation?
This is where you are going to gain that experience. By not avoiding things with her.
But I will say i have yet to deal with a dog that has turned on me....Tucker was very dog aggressive but he never ever re-directed it onto me.
So as much as i would like to say Just be tough and step up and show her who's boss i can't because i think i would totally understand being a bit hesitant about going through that again with your dog and being worried about the outcome.
If she wins...you lose. to put it bluntly

**edit...i don't mean set her off as in the situation where she came up the leash. I don't think you should re-create that just yet.