Quote: Georgio Pasha

David, I wanted to get your thoughts on my probably terrible Idea. On the chance that they are indeed trying to establish their pack rank, would allowing them to wrestle/muzzle fight, make that issue pass or exacerbate and support the idea of them fighting?

Lots of questions. This one stands out as a huge one to get rid of right away. Bad plan.

Yeah, as Connie says, you don't want to do that.

It is pretty much impossible to assess these dogs without seeing them, but based on what you've said about them...If you're looking for 2 care free dogs to be pets that you won't have to really work on, these are simply not the dogs that you want.

If you love these dogs and you want to work with them, we can help you with that, but if you want care free pets, you'll need to find either one or two different animals. I don't think that these dogs will ever be trustworthy together, based on your descriptions.

I want to encourage you with this: You get dogs that come from horrible backgrounds. A lot of people say "he's from a shelter, he was probably abused" -- in most cases this is simply not true, however, because of the breeds you're dealing with, it's actually possible that a lot of your dogs have been fought, or abused, or mistreated in some way.

Be cognizant of this fact, but don't dwell on it. It is a disservice to the dogs to focus on where they have been, focus instead on where they WILL be. I'm not saying ignore aggression or be reckless, but don't let bad feelings hamper your training. I'm sure you know all this.

 Quote: david eagle

...If you're looking for 2 care free dogs to be pets that you won't have to really work on, these are simply not the dogs that you want.

...if you want care free pets, you'll need to find either one or two different animals. I don't think that these dogs will ever be trustworthy together, based on your descriptions.

Totally agree with these thoughts. These types of dogs just cannot be trusted left to their own devices. I don't necessarily blame you for wanting to "relax" a bit when home based on what you do all day.

For the record, Georgio, I wasn't suggesting that you don't know your breeds w/my 120lb Pit observation; I was asking Benjamin where he was coming from w/Pit experience and used that as a disclaimer, thinking he'd say "Well, those aren't Pits anyway." You were dead-on w/your assessment of the breeding practices resulting in 120lb "Pit Bulls."

Thanks Connie & David. There are so many opinions and avenues and its hard to find the most effective one for each issue. To be honest, I came here because Ed's take on things fits my personality. I am not so sure its the best approach for these dogs. Again, leash corrections on these levels seem to spook these fellas and they loose trust.

I don't dwell on their past at all. I only mention it because I am trying to give you all the tools I can to make an impossible assessment over the Internet.
fighting is very prevalent in both Brooklyn and the Bronx. The majority of these dogs where taken from both areas. They usually come with a brief history if passable and they get a shoddy SAFER test before being put up for adoption. The groups I help only rescue "questionable temperament dogs. Its a hard assessment to make. Some turn 100% great after leaving a kill shelter and others the opposite. In my brief time doing this some 100 dogs have past through here this summer and I would say my own "killer" would be the only one that I would not be comfortable giving out in some form of adoption. there is a home and a situation for almost any dog, but its either my inexperience, and I am missing the signs, or this dogs lightning fast trigger is not anything more then a change of mind. I see nothing before the turn. That bothers me

As for working within them. I Will! I am eager to gain the experiences and to exhaust different ideas. The first of which would be to get the younger dog to "behave" better in a pack structure. I am hoping that his growling and fear with subside as he grows more comfortable here. Also, Its not fair to any of them that I have someone Begging me to take on "just this one more dog" almost every day. it taxes my time and resources and doesn't allow me to address these two on the level which I would like.

With that said, I am refreshed and ready to try . Please let me know what I can start instilling as far as exercises and lessons I could add to my daily regimen.

The Issue regarding the growling when they are woken is a start. Whats my course? ( I agree with the them, I too hate hate hate to be woken!)

 Quote: Georgio Pasha

The Issue regarding the growling when they are woken is a start. Whats my course? ( I agree with the them, I too hate hate hate to be woken!)

Is the dog fully awake and aware of who he's growling at? Or growling while waking?

I know you work w/different breeds. This may or may not apply to you, and please do not be offended.

I know with my own Pits, I need to treat/discipline/correct them VERY differently than my GSDs. The GSDs are much harder dogs. I can give a GSD a "level 10 correction" and he won't bat an eye (exaggeration, of course). If I give a Pit a "level 4" they act like they're never going to recover emotionally, and my female has actually gone 2 weeks without looking me in the face or wagging her tail near me after a really hard correction/disagreement w/me. It was a very serious situation, and while I would not say it was too much for the situation (no regrets-I had no choice), she could not handle it like another dog would've. I thought there was really something wrong w/her until she interacted normally/happy w/my boyfriend.

Hard corrections tend to shut them down, whether abused or not. Ironically, they're capable of killing other animals easily, and are often the ones who need the most serious corrections. This is why I practice avoidance/separation w/my Pits and the others, and spend more energy on corrections w/the GSDs. It was very hard to change my whole correction "style" after not having a Pit for a few years, but it had to be done. They seem to be much softer toward the handler, and in a case like yours, where you don't have an extreme bond and the dog has some "baggage" they can get in a frame of mind where you can get bitten out of fear or self-defense.

So, just something to think about when dealing with them. It may not be worth jeopardizing your relationship w/either dog to make them get along. Work on bonding with each one individually; it just might help in the long run if they are both more secure with YOU, and in turn POSSIBLY make them less apt to need to fight everything out. Good luck. I'm dealing with this right now w/one of my Pits and it sucks. She's not the problem, but I cannot allow her to finish a fight!

Hello Georgio - I thought I'd jump in here and add a few cents for what they are worth. I don't know how many others on the board here have dealt with dogs that have been used for fighting before, but I have (Not at all to put down their knowledge or advice in any way, I really am not sure how many have)

Do you know for SURE that these dogs were used for fighting? It is pretty easy to tell - they are covered in scars. Primarily on the face, no dog used for fighting doesn't have scars and plenty of them. These aren't normal "oops ran into the wall" or "the neighbors cat scratched my nose" type of scars. I'm sure you know that already but I wanted to state it just in case.

I rescued two dogs where I used to live that were used for fighting. Ah ok to be completely honest I stole them, I knew the people who had them, it was a very small town. One was a pit, the other was a rott/pit mix. Pits and other dogs that have been fought either in a staged setting don't growl or bark or snarl prior to the attack because it is pointless for them to do so. Seasoned fighting dogs are easy to spot as they are the nearly dead silent.

Barking, growling, snarling - that is communication, all of that is to announce to the other dog(s) and the world that they are going to attack, it is a warning or a declaration of confidence. Vocalization is to communicate a warning, the dogs confidence, and to pysche the other animal out into backing down such as in a regular dominance or territorial battle. Fighting dogs do not need to do this, it doesn't matter if they are warning the other dog or if they are confident or not, they are going to fight/be fought. The energy it takes to jump around and yip and bark and snarl and growl is wasted energy - a dog that means business is a dog that is silent, still, and staring.

These are only my observations and indeed the silence and no vocal warning/minimal if any physical posturing is not limited to dogs that have been fought, I see it in a variety of dogs but there is always a tell - you have to be watching for it and usually by the time you notice it, it's too late, until "next time."

A few things jump out at me in your posts. You have a lot of dogs (as you are a rescue) and you have a "dog couch" and I can't tell if the dogs regularly interact or are they crated, how often? I would have to say the dog couch is a bad idea, same principal as not letting dogs on "human furniture" for dominance reasons. I only use dog beds and these are in the dogs crates or if brought out everyone is supervised and no dog is allowed to lay on anothers bed - I enforce this. Anything one dog can take from another, including a spot on the couch or a certain bed, causes tension and initiates rank issues.

I have found that the dog that is used to winning is the dog that is easier to condition than the dog that always or often more seriously hurt/lost. I only rescued and kept the two dogs in my own home for re training/working with but I have worked with a total of 5 dogs that were either officially used for fighting in an arranged atmosphere or were simply allowed to fight/provoked to fight for some sort of sick amusement to the owners.

Crates are your best friends. I recommend keeping these dogs completely seperate from each other - not even allowed to see each other through the crate, or being in the same room as the dog in the crate. You really need to work on your bond and rank with these dogs seperately first. I recommend this for all of your dogs, whether they fight or not. I have done rescue work on a small and informal scale (I did not work with a shelter, I pretty much just took dogs from morons, most of the time with their consent) and no matter the temperament of the dog I kept them seperate from one another for several weeks up to 3 months and all interaction was limited and supervised.

Growling when being woken up has always been a huge no-no around me. Dogs don't view sleep like humans do - you say you agree with them because you hate to be woken up, but relating in that way won't help you out. Dogs don't tend to lack sleep, they sleep whenever wherever and don't have strict sleeping schedules like people do. Growling when woken up, I view as a dominance/rank issue - depending on the circumstance. If the dog is awake when it growls and aware of you when it growls then I view it as a rank issue. If the dog is still asleep or not aware of you and only reacting to being poked etc then it is not.

Pack structure!! I cannot say it enough. pack structure pack structure pack structure. You need to work with these dogs one on one. They may never be trustworthy around each other or other dogs alone or off a leash, but you will be able to get a better idea of that only after you have firmly established yourself as the pack leader.

As Jenni states above different dogs have different temperaments and different levels of correction they can take/and how they respond. The dogs I've had (pits, amstaffs, mixes, rotties, american bulldog) could take a very hard correction like it was nothing, if in drive, but when not in drive were much softer, but likewise one of the boys I took was just plain hard, corrections didn't matter much at all.

Just my .99 cents I've been really sick lately and if responses are made with questions I may not get back to them immediately, but I will as I can

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Pits and other dogs that have been fought either in a staged setting don't growl or bark or snarl prior to the attack because it is pointless for them to do so. Seasoned fighting dogs are easy to spot as they are the nearly dead silent.

Barking, growling, snarling - that is communication, all of that is to announce to the other dog(s) and the world that they are going to attack, it is a warning or a declaration of confidence. Vocalization is to communicate a warning, the dogs confidence, and to pysche the other animal out into backing down such as in a regular dominance or territorial battle. Fighting dogs do not need to do this, it doesn't matter if they are warning the other dog or if they are confident or not, they are going to fight/be fought. The energy it takes to jump around and yip and bark and snarl and growl is wasted energy - a dog that means business is a dog that is silent, still, and staring.

YES! This is why I was asking Benjamin how much experience he had...dogs who really want to fight are not going to "tell" you how close they can get before fighting. My question was in response to his suggestion that he put them together to see how close they could get before a fight broke out. My older Pit would loooove to play in an experiment like this.

 Quote:

You really need to work on your bond and rank with these dogs seperately first.

Ah, great minds think alike. Glad you agree.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

As Jenni states above different dogs have different temperaments and different levels of correction they can take/and how they respond. The dogs I've had (pits, amstaffs, mixes, rotties, american bulldog) could take a very hard correction like it was nothing, if in drive, but when not in drive were much softer, but likewise one of the boys I took was just plain hard, corrections didn't matter much at all.

Also glad this is not just me. I have really been questioning myself over this.

Generally the only warning you have is the fact that they are moving or when they crouch a bit or tighten the muscles in the hindquarters prior to their pounce. They may be wagging their tail, they may not be, they may be panting, they may not be. They might not even be looking at the other dog directly - some dogs learn that the human is going to intervene or that they get corrected for looking at the other dog and so will watch out of the corner of their eye or in their peripheral and then suddenly go for it to get around the correction for eye contact. Dogs are a quick study, they will use what they can to get what they want. If they notice that they get a correction for looking, they won't look. If they learn that by then not looking the other dog comes closer........

Edit: to directly respond to Benjamin's post, counter conditioning, the look at me game, etc may work to transfer the dogs attention to looking at you/looking away from the dog but it does not prevent the dog from knowing that the other dog is there. It is not a blindfold and does not eliminate their senses, it merely means you have trained your dog that looking at you/away from the other dog is more beneficial to that dog at that very moment while the other dog is at a distance, than staring it down or displaying aggression. This only works when the dogs are on leash and not close enough to come in contact with eachother. It is redirection, NOT ELIMINATION.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

So, just something to think about when dealing with them. It may not be worth jeopardizing your relationship w/either dog to make them get along. Work on bonding with each one individually; it just might help in the long run if they are both more secure with YOU, and in turn POSSIBLY make them less apt to need to fight everything out. Good luck. ...

Exactly. 100% yes.