Quote: carol boche

 Quote: lynne barrows

But, I have to trade her (which in my opinion is a bribe) to out a high value item like a chew. I feel that this is a pack leadership issue, and to me it seems as though she is accepting of my leadership in certain situations, and not so accepting in other situations.
Or am i reading this wrong?

I would not consider it a bribe since she is still a pup and you need to teach her the desired behavior of the "out".

Once the behavior is learned and you know the dog "knows" what you want, then I would consider it to be a challenge to your leadership.

That makes sense. I will start w/ high value treats (hidden in a bait bag) and proceed from there. I would like to get to the point where she outs anything that I ask her to without neccessarily having to reward her for it. (ps this is pretty much what you suggested I do on that other post in Mallory's thread...thanks!)

Lynne,

Once she knows what you want and she is performing it solid, then you can phase out the reward part.

 Quote: brad . martin

This is a bit of a loose statement. If a dog is put into a position and moves from that position, when the handler replaces the dog the dog's behavior is being corrected. Sure maybe the handler is not administering a leash correction but the activity of the dog is being actively modified, to me this constitutes a correction.

When I use the word "correction" I'm not reaching for every possible definition of the term, but rather common usage. For this specific community, common usage of 'correction' implies:

1. A leash correction
2. An e-collar correction
3. A manually administered correction for dominance and/or pack manners issues

So when I say that you return the dog without correcting it, it should be pretty obvious that what I mean is, you don't use a leash pop, or manual correction, as you might when working Obedience.

 Quote:

Also, to not say you are being forceful in this situation i think could be inaccurate. In this description the dog is being forced to lie back down. What if a strong willed dog decides to resist? Does the handler let the dog win and give up, no you have to follow through, so the dog is forced to comply in this case. The degree of force will vary from dog to dog, sure, but pushing a dog to the floor is a compulsive activity.

You're right. I wouldn't recommend trying this on a working dog. Hopefully the handlers of dogs that you describe in the above paragraph don't need steps like this one, or have developed their own tools. This is targeted towards the owner of a pet dog who sometimes tests the boundaries. A half an hour a day under the direction and supervision of their handler can greatly improve bond, respect, and trust.

This is basically idential to the grooming exercise that Ed teaches in the Pack Structure DVD that we're talking about, without the grooming. The degree of force / gentleness that you use is directly proportional to the dogs compliance.

Watch the section on grooming, see what he says about that time. He describes it as "A chance to show the dog that you are fair, and can be firm."

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I agree that this, as it is described, would not be OB training to say that this activity will make pack structure clear for the dog will prove to be false, unless the remainder of the relationship is also stable. If there is an improper human to dog pack dynamic, exercises like this could prove hazardous when the puppy grows into an adult.

I'd like for you to explain what you mean here, because I want to understand how you see potential problems arising from this exercise. I'm genuinely curious.

Just to be clear, what we're talking about here is sitting quietly with your dog and insisting that it maintain a certain position until you decide it can do otherwise. You are not hitting it or correcting it for disobeying, you're simply very gently and calmly enforcing your will. Aside from the working dogs that I describe above, who should be handled by professionals, I'd like to hear why you think this will backfire down the road.

It is a technique that, when exercised correctly, will improve your bond with your dog. For extremely dominant dogs it may not be effective, but I'd say for 75% of dogs, assuming you have established a trust relationship with them, and you know what you're doing, it is extremely effective.

 Quote:

The Dog Whisperer has got some skills, there's no doubt, but even he talks about leadership being an attitude more than anything else.

It's an interesting close to your post. Perhaps because I said you could implement this while you were watching the dog Whisperer, you assumed that it was a cesar milan technique? And maybe he has used something similar, but that's not where this originated.

Leadership is a combination of attitude and action. You cannot be missing either. If you constantly project the attitude of a leader but have none of the trappings (first right to food, right to personal space, right to go through tight areas first, right to lead the pack, right to claim a spot, right to resources, right to enforce your will within the pack) all the attitude in the world won't help you in a long term relationship with an animal.

 Quote: rhonda parkin

David thank you for your suggestions about putting him in a down, I think I will store that away for later though. As he is still so young we haven't been doing much duration for his down yet (we are just starting this now) so I imagine it would very confusing for him. Not to mention a struggle for us to keep him there, we would be telling him every 10 seconds to go back to his down.

With anything that anyone suggests on this forum I hope you'll think about it, and if it doesn't seem like a good fit for you or your dog I really hope you'll just reject it. Everyone has an opinion, and frankly you just know what will or wont' work for your dog, a lot of the time.

With that said, I do want to point out two things. First, as opposed to obedience, this exercise in "laying down calmly" is not performed with a command. In fact, you can perform the whole exercise without saying anything at all to the dog.

I started doing this with my 5 month old Sheltie, it took him about 2 minutes to figure out that I wanted him to stay next to me. So, every day I'd come home from work, I'd take him out into the back yard and lay him down next to my knee. Aside from teaching him that he had no choice but to do what I wanted, and that I was fair, I really feel like it taught him that it was rewarding to be calm. If you've ever seen a sheltie, you know that they aren't genetically predisposed to calmness.

 Quote: David Eagle

I started doing this with my 5 month old Sheltie, it took him about 2 minutes to figure out that I wanted him to stay next to me. So, every day I'd come home from work, I'd take him out into the back yard and lay him down next to my knee. Aside from teaching him that he had no choice but to do what I wanted, and that I was fair, I really feel like it taught him that it was rewarding to be calm. If you've ever seen a sheltie, you know that they aren't genetically predisposed to calmness.

David, while you do this are you touching the dog? (I mean when she is laying calmly) For me, I think this would be a good way to create a stronger bond w/ my pup. That being said, she doesn't like much touching (petting), so I don't know how rewarding she will find this. And I'm not entirely sure that I can keep her in the down position without using a food reward.

But I still think it's worth trying it...

Lynne
My pup isn't much into being petted. He is getting better the older he gets. I use the down on the side to brush and do the nails, clean ears. I talk soothing when she is submissive. Really the first two times were tough. Now I think he knows there is no use fighting so let's just get it over with.

Michelle, I need to work more on grooming for bonding purposes. She's very short coated and doesn't need much except for the occasional bath, so I tend to forget to brush her. Good reminder!

Lynne,

Great question. Remember, petting dogs is something that we do because we want to. Canine massage is more pleasant (to the dog) than petting for sharing affection.

To answer your question, no. At most, he'd be touching my knee, simply because of where he happened to be laying. You'd be surprised how much bonding happens just sitting quietly next to your dog, sharing a moment with them, without stroking or touching or talking in any way.

Every time the dog gets up, return it to its original position. It really doesn't take long for it to figure out that it's not going anywhere. to get it into the down:

Put your hand against the dogs chest, stroke back from the shoulders to the hindquarters, exerting gentle pressure as you reach the rear end. Eventually, it will sit. This is the tricky part: Very gently lift the front paws and lower it into a down. If you have a hyper dog, you may want to get it realllyyy tired before you try this. Every time the dog gets up, repeat this process to return it to a down. It's a lot easier to establish the ritual as a puppy, when "squirminess" is more manageable. It's still doable with a large dog, but he'd better be tired, bonded to you, and comfortable with being handled.

Thanks David, I'm going to try it. The tricky part will be to get that quiet 15 minutes away from my 5 year old.

Hi David,

You seem to be a little bit disturbed by my reply to your comment. So, please let me first state that that was not my intent. I am merely trying to open this discussion a little bit further than it already has been.

Surely you realize that what you write could be misinterpreted by your readers. So, to say that something in print should be failry obvious, or imply a specific description is an error on the part of the writer.

 Quote: david eagle

You're right. I wouldn't recommend trying this on a working dog. Hopefully the handlers of dogs that you describe in the above paragraph don't need steps like this one, or have developed their own tools. This is targeted towards the owner of a pet dog who sometimes tests the boundaries. A half an hour a day under the direction and supervision of their handler can greatly improve bond, respect, and trust.

I have dealt with many pet dogs of large and small breed that have gone well beyond pushing the boudaries, wherein if this technique were attempted on them by their owners a bite would most likely have been the result. A propensity for dominance or aggression or both is not selective to working bloodline animals. I did not respond to your post to suggest that your advise to the OP was wrong, or that it would not work, merely to point out that it might be incomplete depending on the situation of the OP. However, there is no way either one of us could know this without observing the situation first hand. My motivation at the time, and now, in my response, was solely to provide another perspective for the OP to be aware of.

 Quote: david eagle

I'd like for you to explain what you mean here, because I want to understand how you see potential problems arising from this exercise. I'm genuinely curious.

Well David, you have already demonstrated that you know what I mean, with the statement you quoted, regarding this question. However, as I pointed out the potential for danger is not specific to working animals. By forcing a dog into a submissive postion the handler must be prepared for that dog to potentially chanllange the handler.

 Quote:

Just to be clear, what we're talking about here is sitting quietly with your dog and insisting that it maintain a certain position until you decide it can do otherwise. You are not hitting it or correcting it for disobeying, you're simply very gently and calmly enforcing your will. Aside from the working dogs that I describe above, who should be handled by professionals, I'd like to hear why you think this will backfire down the road.

Who said anything about hitting?? Just to be clear, I don't see that this will backfire down the road, I only see that it could with the wrong dog and/or the wrong person. Also, the chances of it backfiring, under the circumstances I have just stated, would be more likely by enforcing the handler's will to place the dog in a "down" rather a "sit". The reason being simply that the down is a very submissive postion for a dog to be in and if the dog won't submit it will challange. Now mind you a challange is not always a bite, it could very likely be just a bit of resistance; as in all interactions, it depends on the dog.

 Quote:

It is a technique that, when exercised correctly, will improve your bond with your dog. For extremely dominant dogs it may not be effective, but I'd say for 75% of dogs, assuming you have established a trust relationship with them, and you know what you're doing, it is extremely effective.

Sure, I'd have to be inclinded to agree with you. But you said yourself, "assuming you have established a trust relationship with them, and you know what you're doing". Also, there is the other 25% that you mention this would not work with that should be considered by someone going to attempt this exercise.