Quote: sandy moore

”...Beautiful Malamute, he's gorgeous. Got pics of your others? You can post 2 pics in the Members Bio section of the forum. Would love to see them.

“Welcome to the board.”

Sandy:
Thanks for the welcome; its good to be here among likeminded folk, and I hope to contribute when and where I can concerning my narrow little niche of handling expertise (canine wilderness excursions)... I’d be happy to share more about that later, if appropriate.

And yes, Merit is a handsome boy (thanks again), but his real attribute is backcountry skills. That, methinks, may be part of his “issue” with not engaging prey items as I indicated above. He’s been trained to resist crittering (engaging chase of wildlife) albeit that possibility is subject to conformation testing on my part. If so, if the crittering aspect appears part of the problem why he won’t engage a prey item, I’ll have to adjust with Makua (Merit’s brother, shown at right under my sig-line) to prevent similar confusion.

Also, rather than post two separate pix of ”The Boys” in the Members Bio section? I positioned them under one at my sig-line.

 Quote: will rambeau

”...With the Malamute's well-know food drive, why not just continue using food?

“...I'd stick to what works with *your* dog - that's actually one of the "big secrets" of dog training, lol.”

Will:
Hmmm well that’s the problem; thus far even food enticement hasn’t worked with this particular dog, to get him engaging a prey item. You see Merit (the oldest, subject, Mal) will not even engage a Kong toy stuffed with steak pieces, so he’s being fasted a tad to increase the enticement factor. As of tomorrow he’ll have gone two (2) days without a full meal, so we’ll work on the making drive game in the morning (when he should be plenty hungry and consequently motivated).

And just so folks won’t get the wrong idea..?

Malamutes have very efficient metabolisms; so much so that working teams in Alaska (sled teams generally) often go several days without meals with no negative health affects. In fact, not eating hardly fazes these dogs on the trail. Also, contrary to popular belief, Malamutes don’t require large portions of food when they are feed.

Having stated such, please don’t think I’m being cruel by not feeding my dog a complete meal for a couple days. It truly has no affect on him other than acting as a motivational catalyst, when we resume the making drive game in the morning. (Although he will be feed an ample portion after our training session, no matter the results, rest assured.)

I’ll post again to let everyone know how our session tomorrow turned out.

in college my roomate had a malamute and I remember him doing all sorts of things to entice the dog to eat and thinking what a weird dog he was, and that it was ridiculous to try so hard to get a dog to eat.

Then I got levi and found myself doing ridiculous things to get the dog to eat. Even during peak growth periods he could take food or leave it. drove me nuts!!

 Quote: Mark Villasenor

...I’d like to use drive training as a means to focus the Mals to enhance their pull routines, if possible.

A couple of questions: has drive training been used before for this? What method is usually used with success? I'm wondering if drive training would even do what you want it to - however I'm wondering this based on no knowledge whatsoever of sledding with dogs. I'm thinking there would be a different reward in the mind of a Malamute, such as the run or the pull itself, wide open spaces, the work itself that they thrive on, that type of thing.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

”...has drive training been used before for this?”

Sandy:
Not that I am aware of but, as you may agree, that doesn’t necessarily mean the technique cannot be applied to Malamutes and/or pull training. Correspondingly my objective is to make drive as much as possible, and use it toward gaining better focus for general and pull training purposes.

Merit usually has pretty good focus as it is, eyeing a food item for considerable periods (while drooling like a spigot I might add). His record is five (5) minutes sitting as shown in his picture (below), where a food item was dangled above his head (just out of the photo frame). So I know this particular dog is capable of concentrated focus, and thus in theory the “making drive” game should enhance that.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

”What method is usually used with success?”

There are several methods to get a Mal to start pulling (and they usually ‘get it’ rather fast being bred for pulling), but one of the most common is similar to puppy run-aways used in SAR work. Others include physically leading the dog, or capitalizing on a Mal’s competitive nature by having it watch other dogs pull (the ‘monkey-see, monkey-do’ technique).

 Quote: Sandy Moore

”I'm thinking there would be a different reward in the mind of a Malamute, such as the run or the pull itself, wide open spaces, the work itself that they thrive on, that type of thing.”

And you’re absolutely correct; there are “other” rewards for Malamutes, such as you’ve mentioned. This endeavor to engage more drive, however, is not to replace those but to enhance handling while in ‘pull-mode’ -- I’ll explain, albeit please bear with the detail, offered for background...

Merit & Makua are foundation dogs for a non-profit I am developing, in part, to represent canine interests to both local and National land managers (Forest Service, BLM, National Parks, Fish & Game, etc.) promoting better handling techniques in wild places.

There is an understated culture at present within some (but not all) land management agencies to frown upon dogs within wild places (mostly designated Wilderness), based on questionable science and personal perspectives in reliance upon that inconclusive science. This view is reflected by many backpacking and outdoor concerns, who would rather dogs be prohibited altogether from wilderness exposure.

In short, my research over the last three (3) years has determined that a well-managed dog does not pose a significant threat to ecosystems, than say a person in wilderness without a dog might. So that’s the meat of the program, promoting eco-friendly handling protocols I developed in cooperation with the US Forest Service.

Part & parcel to the facet of optimum dog handling in wild places; the program will feature a community-service element, where disabled persons will be towed in special wheelchairs into designated Wilderness by dogs (in compliance with ADA §507). And while expressly performing this function the dogs will be considered “service animals” as defined by law.

...That’s the background, in brief.

Malamutes were selected as foundation dogs (over GSDs for example, which I also own and handle), for many reasons too numerous to mention here, yet primarily for their ability to tow heavy loads for long distances. Although Malamutes, being independent dogs, pose some potential risks while towing a disabled person.

Rather then implement physical restrictive controls to offset those potential risks, I’m hoping that enhanced training can counterbalance some traits specific to Malamutes. Hence; why I’m so keen to get Merit (the subject dog) to engage the making drive game...

There are definitive objectives behind what only appears to be madness.

 Quote: mark villasenor

...There are definitive objectives behind what only appears to be madness.

Doesn't appear to be madness at all, I had a feeling you had some background behind the desire to create more drive, other than what you initially mentioned . You explained it wonderfully, thank you, and I applaud the work you've set out to do. It's a wonderful objective and I'm impressed that someone would be so involved with starting something like that. It's sorely needed.

Maybe you could explain one more thing for me, since your close work with the Forest Service may have given you some insights. You mentioned a well-managed dog not posing a threat to ecosystems. I've always wondered why government land and other agencies think that the opposite is true, because it's hard for me to see any difference between a dog, wolf, or coyote, all tromping through the woods and meadows. It would seem that all 3 would have the same effect, being canines, and that nothing could be more natural than them being out there, leaving an animal footprint (versus the beer bottle breaking, fire causing, roll over everything with their OHV's and ATV's, humans).

Why are dogs singled out as being any kind of threat to an environment that is natural for them? The only reason I can think of is that a dog may be a little "crazier" out there than the canines that were born and raised out there, since dogs are not often out there and they tend to go a little loopy when they get to go.

Edited to add: yes, no reason drive building can't be used, now that I understand the objective

 Quote: Sandy Moore

”...I'm impressed that someone would be so involved with starting something like that. It's sorely needed.

Sandy:
At the risk of getting too far a field from our topic...

I only became involved as a result of my functions as a Forest Service volunteer Wilderness Ranger, and as a dog lover was more sensitive to the subject issues. Had those factors not come together, I’d have definitely not specifically chosen to spend thousands of hours working for change.

You see three (3) years ago I began to notice a trend and attitude against dogs in the wild, based on biological studies that SUGGEST (and there’s a ton of room for interpretation in that word) dogs cause ecosystem damage. And to be candid it appears they can under certain circumstances, which do not necessarily apply to all wilderness and/or all dog-in-outdoor situations.

The trouble is some eco-concerns, including very competent land managers, have extrapolated a tad too much from the available science (biological studies); desiring to ‘error on the side of caution’ as is commonly purported, and take positions that tend to dissuade canine involvement in wilderness. This is a growing trend, albeit one of those that is not broadly known. (Of course I’m condensing the core issues drastically for brevity sake.)

So long and short, I decided to do something about it.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

“You mentioned a well-managed dog not posing a threat to ecosystems. I've always wondered why government land and other agencies think that the opposite is true, because it's hard for me to see any difference between a dog, wolf, or coyote, all tromping through the woods and meadows. It would seem that all 3 would have the same effect, being canines, and that nothing could be more natural than them being out there, leaving an animal footprint (versus the beer bottle breaking, fire causing, roll over everything with their OHV's and ATV's, humans). Why are dogs singled out as being any kind of threat to an environment that is natural for them?”

Short answer to the latter; dogs are an easy target because many folks who use National Forest lands, for example, while accompanied by a dog don’t consider the consequences of allowing a pooch to run amuck in the wild. These are not necessarily bad people or otherwise irresponsible dog owners; they simply don’t know any better, which feeds into an opposing mindset by concerned land managers and eco-interests.

Many otherwise conscientious dog owners perceive wilderness as a huge doggie playground (a natural “Dog Park&rdquo, where Fido can run and play; chase wildlife, and generally do what dogs do without traditional controls -- leashes or handling considerations. This one aspect alone (allowing a dog to roam off-lead in the wild, while hiking for instance) extends mans sphere of influence in wild places, and increases the POTENTIAL (not probability) for ecosystem harm.

Moreover dogs are predatory by nature, being canis lupus familiaris (in the family of wolf), and pose a POTENTIAL (again, not certainty) of competing with wolves, coyotes, foxes and the like (also predators) for food sources if introduced into the wild improperly. Feral dogs (those that have reverted back to a wild or semi-wild state) after being lost by humans is a prime example of such an ecological event; whereas, feralization often happens through dog folk not knowing the consequences of dogs in wilderness. (Once again I’m condensing the hub issues radically for brevity.)

Therefore opposing subject land managers and eco-concerns aren’t necessarily wrong, and they are not always acting inappropriately concerning dogs. Albeit, my great conflict with some (but clearly not all) land managers and eco-concerns is that they gripe (dare I say, whine to high-heaven in most cases), but do little more than push for restrictions rather than education of the dog owning public. Thus the latter is a core function of the organization I am developing; education, not restrictions!

Please note that it would require comprehensive material (which I am in the process of writing) to fully explain the science, sentiments and reasons behind specialized handling protocols for dogs in wild places.

...There is far more to consider than simply loading Rover in the family vehicle, and heading out to wild lands for recreation or other purposes.

Well, Mark, I almost jumped down your throat for such a hijack ... but it's your thread!

No worries, Connie. Although I was asked reasonable questions, so I thought it only polite to attempt addressing them accordingly... LOL, I did not intend to hijack my own thread!

My fault for the hijack on the topic! I could have started another thread but didn't think about it....it seemed to just flow

Thanks again for explaining Mark. I (almost) always agree with education versus restriction. I say "almost" because education implies that people actually want to learn and we know that isn't always the case with people who own dogs but I believe most people would welcome being educated about trekking with their dogs in public lands.

I still think humans make a much more drastic impact but there are some wonderful people who use the lands who are aware of this, my husband having been one of them. He barely left footprints. He knew how to be out there.

So back to building drive for Merit . Sorry to get off topic.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

”I (almost) always agree with education versus restriction. I say ‘almost’ because education implies that people actually want to learn and we know that isn't always the case with people who own dogs...”

Sandy:
Certainly I agree albeit this is a case of abuse-it and lose-it, by and large. And I have come to know that when people understand the issues in that context, potentially or actually, they tend to take a more keen interest.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

”...back to building drive for Merit . Sorry to get off topic.”

No worry whatsoever, our tangent was a pleasant distraction...

OK, I tried several prey items during training today with some positive results! We experimented with a strip of steak, steak bits in the Kong ball, feathers and a piece from a lady’s (garment) fluffy boa. I obtained a 36 inch 3/4” round dowel rod; screwed an eyelet at the top; and, tied about four (4) feet of Para-cord to the eyelet. Food and prey items were tied to the other end and dangled before the dog with rapid movements; with 30 to 60 minute breaks between tries.

...Worst results first.

The steak strip and bits in the Kong ball, proved too cumbersome to create lasting drive mode. Although Merit showed interest for both, the food enticements didn’t last long enough for the dog to peak in high drive. The steak strip takes a few minutes to place another on the line, so by the time that would have been done the dog’s attention would have been elsewhere. Same goes for the steak bits in the Kong ball. Yet these are still good items for the puppy, as Makua isn’t quite as fast as Merit and seems to engage almost anything dangling by the string.

The boa proved a little better and really peaked Merit’s attention, enthusiastically gaining his concentrated pursuit attempts (mostly lunging and dolphin jumps, but I’m not complaining). Although once he acquired the boa prey item interest tapered off rather fast. I sense (speculation on my part) that when the dog realized the boa was made from synthetics, and provided nothing really to taste, he felt let-down.

Best results were achieved with REAL fowl feathers.

Since Malamutes instinctively hunt song birds in the wilds of Alaska, if allowed to do so, much like a stealthy cat. This item really seemed to hit a responsive cord, as Merit almost caught a complete nut-roll during the chase sequences. I was not only impressed but realized that crafting interesting enough prey items for this particular breed, may very well hinge upon components from known natural prey animals.

During future making drive sessions, I’m going to attempt a prey item made from real gray and red squirrel tails. Squirrels are the only critter I have never been able to soundly get Merit to resist in the backcountry, and must physically restrain him when he lights on one. Now using a squirrel tail may be contradictory to his “leave-it” no crittering training, although I believe whatever confusion risks are posed are worth contending with; if any.

Since we live and train among tall trees in the mountains (Central Sierras of California), squirrels are commonly teasing the dogs; flicking their fuzzy tails high in the trees as they rapidly move about. So I’m willing to bet the squirrel tail concept will go over big time, and give Merit the chance to vicariously extract some vengeance for his morning frustrations by live squirrels. Time will tell, but at least I got the dog to light on and show impressive interest in at least one prey item (feathers in a clump).

All-n-all, I’m pleased with where we’re at concerning making drive. But we can do better, I know it!