Guess I'll invest in a trash can w/ a lid...

 Quote: Sarah Morris

This has been my experience for most things but I've had a few lapses (and for a smart dog it just takes once) and a problem is born.

A quote from a very smart man who posts on this board every now and then ..

 Quote: David Frost

Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again.

Exactly!!! Hot Damn I love that statement!

Goes back to the fight that you can win approach. Some things have to be preemptive i.e. locking up the garbage under the sink or keeping the dog out of the kitchen in the first place.

But once it happens the dog knows it can do it and do it again it will. That is where you have to set up a scenario if you want to fix it.

Pick your battles win them, and be preemptive with the others that are harder to win so you don't have to fight them in the first place.

Thanks all for your responses.

Let's see if I can reply to some of them.

The leash correction could pull her off the ground and back toward me, but doesn't really phase her. Any harder, and I think I'd break her neck. I'm sure Ed could give her a correction she'd react to.

"Peeing on the floor" was more of an exaggeration to describe that, while leash corrections didn't seem to be doing a thing, a can seemed to make a big difference... thus the purpose of "finding the right tool".

The idea being do leash corrections work for every dog? How about e-collars? How about clickers? Seems there are many "tools" to use. And even some tools won't work in some situations so you need to have an arsenal of tools at your disposal.

I agree that the can is not the end all approach, more of a way (in my mind) to stop the behavior... or the thought of the behavior before it becomes a problem with something I get the appropriate response from. And, timing, as mentioned is paramount.

The logic that "what about when the can is not around" could also be applied to "what about when the leash is not around". "What if I'm not holding the clicker?". The plan is to create a pattern of behavior so that at some point, the dog becomes the dog you want. At some point, a dog will learn not to jump on the counter or pull on the leash (or will they just grow out of it?) without any need for correction.

Some battles must be fought. A dog in a house will have "issues" until they learn the house rules. A dog will not learn not to jump up on the counter until they do it and get corrected for it and/or praised for complying or changing their behavior. In my example, we were not making dinner or eating. Just hanging out, but Ginger must have smelled something.

But to address what I think was the point of the not fighting battle comment, things like taking the food off the counter or picking up things the dog should not eat are examples of how to set the dog up for success.

I guess like all things, there are many correct answers.


Great comments.... thanks.

The loud can is more of an interruptor than a correction?

Not trying to be argumentative, but what's the difference? A mother dog will growl when their pups do something wrong (v.s. a physical correction); That could be considered an interrupter. Some corrections humans give can be a simple "Ack!" v.s. a leash pop.

We went to a friend's house who had older Aussies. The older female could just look at Ginger (or their other Aussie) and the dogs knew to stop whatever they were doing. Again, nothing physical.

For some dogs, the canned noise may be an interrupter/correction and NOTHING more. For other dogs, like yours, her reaction, fear, would be enough to tell me never to use it again. (I wouldn't have used it in the first place.)

It is never right, IMO, to get a fear reaction to a correction. Putting fear into a dog should be avoided always. It doesn't matter if it's a "self-correction" such as in bringing a bowl down on a dog's head when he reaches for a towel on the counter, or a correction directly from the owner. If a correction results in fear in the dog, avoid it. A good correction helps the dog to understand what you want and works to calm the dog, not overwhelm it.

The last thing you want is a dog that is afraid of something, ANYTHING. A correction that makes a dog afraid, even temporarily, is either the wrong correction or too hard a correction. One fear leads to another, and another. Fear of one thing doesn't just stay there, it becomes a pattern of reacting. You DON'T want that. The goal should always be to instill confidence in the dog, which will not get in the way of his obedience to your commands. Fear will always get in the way. Don't allow that to manifest itself in your dog.

Use a body block to keep your dog off the counter and garbage. Teach it the word "mine", which means don't touch it, it's mine. It takes more work, but the reward is NO FEAR, which is so very very worth it.

 Quote: mike hawker

The idea being do leash corrections work for every dog? How about e-collars? How about clickers? Seems there are many "tools" to use. And even some tools won't work in some situations so you need to have an arsenal of tools at your disposal.

I agree that the can is not the end all approach, more of a way (in my mind) to stop the behavior... or the thought of the behavior before it becomes a problem with something I get the appropriate response from. And, timing, as mentioned is paramount.

The logic that "what about when the can is not around" could also be applied to "what about when the leash is not around". "What if I'm not holding the clicker?". The plan is to create a pattern of behavior so that at some point, the dog becomes the dog you want. At some point, a dog will learn not to jump on the counter or pull on the leash (or will they just grow out of it?) without any need for correction.

Some battles must be fought. A dog in a house will have "issues" until they learn the house rules. A dog will not learn not to jump up on the counter until they do it and get corrected for it and/or praised for complying or changing their behavior. In my example, we were not making dinner or eating. Just hanging out, but Ginger must have smelled something.

But to address what I think was the point of the not fighting battle comment, things like taking the food off the counter or picking up things the dog should not eat are examples of how to set the dog up for success.

I guess like all things, there are many correct answers.

You are on the right track Mike .. re: my statement about picking only the battles you can win is part of setting up the pup for success.

i.e. If you are cooking and can't keep an eye on the dog. Then it skims something of the counter when you answer the phone when your head is turned. That's a battle that need not have been fought as the dog should be in the crate or tied to you with a belt leash. Ginger may have smelt something but really whose fault is that? Not the dogs fault! To me it is handler error for not setting her up for success then getting dragged into a battle that was not needed. (I say handler error not in a malicious way either, just myself looking in on the situation)

Or you need to have the can, leash, e-collar or whatever tool you are using ready to rock within the 1 second rule. If it is longer than 1 sec IMHO the correction is to late.

Sure if the dog comes up the leash at you and bites you YES that is a battle that needs to be fought and won at all costs. But at this stage of the game you are not there. That is where you need to pick and choose your battles and be one step ahead of the dog to prevent unwanted behavior in the first place. Crates and belt leashes are your friend while you lay down groundwork behavior for a dog to live in your house. IMHO Anything else it is a free for all for the dog and you are doing a disservice to both yourself and the dog.

 Quote: sandy moore

Use a body block to keep your dog off the counter and garbage. Teach it the word "mine", which means don't touch it, it's mine. It takes more work, but the reward is NO FEAR, which is so very very worth it.

I like the body block idea too. What would you do if that didn't work?

I have a feeling my excitement of discovering something that worked made me give the impression that my dog was running and hiding when I shake this can at her. She doesn't. Simply speaking, a leash pop did nothing. An "ACK!" did nothing. Shaking a can made her stop jumping on the counter. I got immediate results (right or wrong).

On one of Ed's video, he had a dog on a long lead and told him to stay while he threw a frisbee. (there was a disclaimer on the video that the Ed had not worked with the dog before so this was a little unfair to him, Ed said). The dog took off running and when he reached the end of his rope- Ed was standing on the other end- POW!, the dog flipped back. I guarantee the dog thought,

"YIKES. I guess I'll listen next time"... instant results.

I guess don't understand the difference between a correction and not instilling fear? i.e. Ed speaks about how far to take a correction. If the dog "shuts down", then you know the correction was too hard. Any reaction less (relative to the situation, of course) is acceptable as long as you get the correct re-direction of the dog's actions.

I'm not talking about using the max correction every time but it seems the word "fear" is the issue here. I think that a correction given should tell the dog, "Look, I'm the boss here and that won't be tolerated". If the dog doesn't respond, the level increases until the dog thinks to itself,

"Crap... I better do what I'm told or I'm going to get my butt kicked"... how is that not fear at some level?

Again, I don't want to give the idea that your dog should fear you in the larger sense, but isn't fear part of the whole training scheme? Your dog is afraid that if he acts inappropriately, it will get: yelled at, leash popped, e-collar'd etc.

Praise, correction, respect, fear... seems to be all parts of the "happy dog" equation.

Leash corrections, with the exception of corrections with a dominant dog collar, are designed to mimic the natural method that all canines use to correct one another in the pack.

No mother dog has ever shaken a can at a puppy- but she has shaken it by the scruff of it's neck. The dog has no real point-of-reference for the noise. It DOES have a point of reference for leash/collar corrections- genetically, and while with it's mother as a young pup.

With the exception of severe corrections with a dominant dog collar, the point is simply to express your displeasure, in the same exact way that another dog would- NOT to instill fear.

Or at least, that's MY understanding.

 Quote: mike hawker

Praise, correction, respect, fear... seems to be all parts of the "happy dog" equation.

Dogs need DISCIPLINE not fear etc. If the dog does something wrong, it gets a response for it. But the response is from YOU. Not a can, not a leash, YOU. That is why the dog off leash still listens. It's because it has learned to respect you. I do not put fear into my dogs when they do something wrong, I show them it is wrong. The same as I show them when they do right. This is the difference in discipline as opposed to punishment. Discipline forms the appropriate behavior by marking the innappropriate behavior. Punishment is an emotional response for a behavior and reinforces fear - yelling, etc. You said that you tried body blocking, leash pops, with no response. To me, that says your dog doesn't respect YOU. If you cannot get your dog to respect you with no "items" like a leash pop, a can, then IMHO you need to work on your basic leadership. I don't NEED a leash to get my dog to back away from an item, or leave something alone. I need me. I USE a leash to restrict my dogs' movement, but I am the one doing the correcting - by blocking the unwanted behavior, not "popping" the leash. This is for the basic house stuff - before the relationship is established, before obedience training. I use leash corrections/ecollar once the dog has learned to respect ME, as an extension of me - after groundwork has been done to teach the dog I am the one doing the correction.
Use a leash to help you facilitate this. It doesn't mean that the leash is making the correction, it means that YOU are. Tether the leash to your belt so the dog cannot leave your immediate area. Any time the dog pulls, goes for the counter, trash, body block it from going further, and walk "through" the dog to get it to back up. This makes the dog respect YOU and the fact that you don't want the dog to leave a specific area, touch an item, etc. The LEASH isn't doing that, it just helps to prevent the dog from getting too far away from you to so that YOU can discipline.
If you have to escalate to an inanimate object that makes noise to get your dog to back away, you are teaching it that the inanimate object is something to be scared of, and that a can is able to punish them. You are teaching them to respect the can, and you are taking yourself out of the equation. Beyond that, you are begining to condition your dog that it should show fear/respect to a non living object. This is the beginning of a fixation or obsession, as well as a fearful dog. Not a happy dog equation at all.