Long posts, so I'm sorry if I missed these items:

This has been going on as you describe for 5 months?

What exactly does "freak out" mean?

What does "another dog challenges him" mean (to you)? And do you mean a loose dog?

This: If we are on a walk and the other dog is in their yard I will lift up until I am cutting off his air but I will keep on walking past the dog's yard and won't loosen the collar until Jack has calmed. I do this everytime.

What? Please post back; is this accurate?

Are you working on focus on you and do you understand about getting his attention redirected waaaay before he fixates on another dog (before he can even see a "challenge" by the other dog, really)?

I need some clarification; I am confused by what your plan is here.


P.S. I know that we can help you modify what you're doing and get some positive work going.

Tanya, in your mind, what is the principle that makes a Dominant Dog collar effective?
How does a dominant dog collar "teach" the dog to stop the behavior?

I ask, because understanding the principle action of the tool, helps one employ it better. I'm trying to get a feel for your understanding, so I know where the missing piece is.

He is a good dog, but whatever happened to him before I got him has made him pretty screwed up -- if I could just figure out this dog aggression thing I'd be completely happy

Yeah, he's super good with the Bunny. She totally kicks his ass. The other day I caught her biting his butt and legs to get him out of her way. She must not have been biting hard because he didn't even flinch.

I think in our family pack I would say that the Bunny rules all.

 Quote: tanya jasperelli

Jack is quite submissive and fearful. Either he was never properly socialised or he was abused.

Also, from what his previous owners told me he was put in a dog run in their yard with their older, larger dog that used to beat him up constantly which probably led to his dog aggression.

I was just reading the top part of the thread and thinking to myself that your description sounded like anxiety behaviours. I thought to myself, this dog has probably been attacked before. Luckily - you can confirm that this did in fact happen. He sees other male dogs as a threat.

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I have since abandonned the prong collar though I might try and give it another shot because his dog aggression seems to be worsening.

I'll bet it will only make things worse. I have a reactive dog also and I guarantee that the prong collar will increase your dog's anxiety and defensive/reactiveness around other dogs. Because not only does he have to fear what the other dog might do to him, he also has to fear what YOU might do to him.

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I've been using the dominant dog collar for a few months now and am still having problems. When we see another dog I make sure not to tighten the leash until Jack reacts.

Okay. What you need to do is react BEFORE he reacts, not after. Follow Jennifer Mullen's advice here.. I'll try to elaborate in a sec.

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I keep him hanging until he is really calm and I can walk him away from the other dog. If we are on a walk and the other dog is in their yard I will lift up until I am cutting off his air but I will keep on walking past the dog's yard and won't loosen the collar until Jack has calmed. I do this everytime.

Yikes. Do you ever praise him for being calm?

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He seems to be getting a little crazier now. As soon as I start to lift up on the collar his mouth is open and he is sorta thrashing about. He bites at my coat, my pant leg, my elbow, and today my arm. I know he isn't deliberately trying to bite me, but he's in what Cesar Milan calls the red zone.. He's basically grabbing at anything near his mouth when I start to choke him, I don't even know if he realises what he's doing. The bites aren't hard, and haven't even broken skin or caused a bruise so I ignore it and keep on choking him until he settles down.

he's knows you're going to choke him, isn't that what you would do if someone was choking you? You are training him that if he sees another dog he's going to be choked.

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I've noticed that he only really loses it if the other dog is also spazzing out.

This is typical in a reactive dog who has been attacked before.

Okay so let's go back to the previous advice you were given. I've pointed out your training mistakes as I see them, going back to Jenn's advice given earlier as well as my own experiences.

Mistake 1. You need to intercept the dog's attention BEFORE he gets focused on the other dog. You are waiting until he gets upset and then giving him major corrections. This is never going to reduce the anxiety he is feeling.

Mistake 2. You are focussing on correcting the dog when he's wrong, instead of giving him the tools he needs to be right. Let's make this into a positive experience for both of you, shall we? Train the heck out of the dog. In particular, you need a SOLID watch me command, sit, and heel. You can train this using markers and it will be positive for the dog. Then, when you see a strange dog and it barks at you, you can redirect the dog and have the dog perform one of his commands. Then you will be able to praise him (party!) rather than choking him!

Now as Jennifer alluded to, at first the dog barking will be a HUGE distraction and it will take some work before he will obey you under extreme distraction. But if you keep working at it, it WILL pay off. I myself have not come as far as Jennifer in this area but I do see results.

Mistake 3. Building a relationship of fear rather than one of trust. Your dog needs to learn to focus on you because he trusts you and knows you will protect him, not learn to fear getting corrected. Get thee the DVD "the power of training dogs with markers" and a couple books, you will be able to train your dog in a positive way.

I have a dog who has been attacked and is reactive just like yours is. We have made progress using redirection before the fact, and obedience. Jennifer Mullen has too, though her dog's aggression is not fear-based. I hope you can too. Keep us posted.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Long posts, so I'm sorry if I missed these items:

This has been going on as you describe for 5 months?

I need some clarification; I am confused by what your plan is here.

Okay, I'll try to explain.. When he 'freaks out', he's basically lunging against his leash, he snarling, growling, barking. He's basically trying to get at the other dog, and really just ignores anything I say to him.

Maybe 'another dog challenging him' isn't the correct way to word it. Basically, if the other dog, who is also on a leash, starts with the lunging/snarling/growling behavior first then Jack automatically reacts in kind. If the other dog ignores us, Jack will still notice him and get stiff, but won't go all out and it's easy for me to get him to focus on me and walk away.

As for the "keep on walking"... when I am walking him and we happen to walk by a dog in its yard that starts the barking/lunging at the fence/growling behavior, Jack will also start lunging/snarling/growling behavior. I lift up on the dd collar so that his front feet just touch the ground but we keep on walking down the street (basically we are walking on the sidewalk across the street from the dog in the yard). If I didn't lift up on the collar I would be dragging him away while he kept on trying to get to the dog.

Basically my goal is to be able to walk in the vicinity of other reactive dogs without losing control over him. I don't even need him to heal, I just want him to walk without pulling at the leash.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

Tanya, in your mind, what is the principle that makes a Dominant Dog collar effective?
How does a dominant dog collar "teach" the dog to stop the behavior?

I ask, because understanding the principle action of the tool, helps one employ it better. I'm trying to get a feel for your understanding, so I know where the missing piece is.

I think I'm missing the big picture too, because I feel it would have worked by now if I was doing it properly. I moved on to the dd collar because a flat collar wasn't giving me any control and a prong collar seemed to make him more frantic...

I know what I want the dd collar to do, to calm him down, and from what I understand from the dominant dog dvd it should send him the message that whenever he becomes aggressive towards another dog he loses his air... so he should stop the behavior.. but I think our signals are getting mixed up because I don't think that's what he's learning...

First, is it possible to work with him (some confidence-building and bonding work) and to exercise him without being near any problem dogs, for a while? Do you have a yard? Can you walk him anywhere where there is no dog problem?

I don't mean forever. I believe that a big change in direction has to be made and that for right now, taking the dog-dog problem out of it for a while will be good.

Can that happen?

(I mean that I/we would tell you what and how; I just want to know if the dog stuff can be put aside for a bit or if you need that help first.)

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I have since abandonned the prong collar though I might try and give it another shot because his dog aggression seems to be worsening.

I'll bet it will only make things worse. I have a reactive dog also and I guarantee that the prong collar will increase your dog's anxiety and defensive/reactiveness around other dogs. Because not only does he have to fear what the other dog might do to him, he also has to fear what YOU might do to him.

Okay, so nix the prong collar idea...

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I've been using the dominant dog collar for a few months now and am still having problems. When we see another dog I make sure not to tighten the leash until Jack reacts.

Okay. What you need to do is react BEFORE he reacts, not after. Follow Jennifer Mullen's advice here.. I'll try to elaborate in a sec.

I read somewhere else on the forum that if I tighten the leash before he reacts then he might just be reacting because he's reading my cues.. I don't want him to think that I am tensing up so he does the same... so I act as naturally as possible until he reacts..

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I keep him hanging until he is really calm and I can walk him away from the other dog. If we are on a walk and the other dog is in their yard I will lift up until I am cutting off his air but I will keep on walking past the dog's yard and won't loosen the collar until Jack has calmed. I do this everytime.

Yikes. Do you ever praise him for being calm?

I do praise him once he has calmed down and he's no longer paying attention to the other dog.

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Mistake 1. You need to intercept the dog's attention BEFORE he gets focused on the other dog. You are waiting until he gets upset and then giving him major corrections. This is never going to reduce the anxiety he is feeling.

Okay, so I was waiting to see if the other dog would react first and then correct him for reacting in kind.. I never know which dog is going to set him off so you think I should get his attention when I notice any dog, regardless if I think he would react to it or not??

You bring up alot of good points. I was watching the dominant and aggressive dog dvd and sorta following that, but Jack isn't really dominant or aggressive, so I've been suing corrections that aren't really appropriate for him -- I'm not too sure how I should handle anxiety.. Do you have any suggestions for that?

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Mistake 2. You are focussing on correcting the dog when he's wrong, instead of giving him the tools he needs to be right. Let's make this into a positive experience for both of you, shall we? Train the heck out of the dog. In particular, you need a SOLID watch me command, sit, and heel. You can train this using markers and it will be positive for the dog. Then, when you see a strange dog and it barks at you, you can redirect the dog and have the dog perform one of his commands. Then you will be able to praise him (party!) rather than choking him!

He's got the sit, down, stay commands down pat.. I don't really have a use for a heel command as he is really good on leash and all I ask is that he doesn't pull. I started teaching him 'focus' command instead of watch me last week... hopefully that will come in handy..

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Mistake 3. Building a relationship of fear rather than one of trust. Your dog needs to learn to focus on you because he trusts you and knows you will protect him, not learn to fear getting corrected. Get thee the DVD "the power of training dogs with markers" and a couple books, you will be able to train your dog in a positive way.

I wouldn't say that he fears getting a correction as I don't use them in everyday training, and just walks it off once he's calmed down from the dd collar when we see another dog. I have been doing marker training with food rewards with his regular obedience stuff. You're right though, I guess I should have tried the marker training to distract him from the other dogs instead of jumping into the 'omg he's an aggressive dog mindset' and correcting him with the dd collar.

It's just so confusing... if you encounter another reactive dog and the marker training fails - lets say you didn't catch it early enough - would you fall back on the dd collar to calm him, or just ignore his behavior and walk away?? How would you handle the situation??

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

First, is it possible to work with him (some confidence-building and bonding work) and to exercise him without being near any problem dogs, for a while? Do you have a yard? Can you walk him anywhere where there is no dog problem?

I don't mean forever. I believe that a big change in direction has to be made and that for right now, taking the dog-dog problem out of it for a while will be good.

Can that happen?

(I mean that I/we would tell you what and how; I just want to know if the dog stuff can be put aside for a bit or if you need that help first.)

I live in an apartment building, so sometimes if we go out for a pee break another dog might come out while we are out there. In our building there is just one dog that he reacts to.

We don't really have a loose dog problem here, so the dogs we encounter are either walking on a leash with their owners, or in their yards... there really isn't a way to avoid them. Even in the hiking trails we walk in we usually encounter a couple of dogs... I've tried walking at different times of the day but we usually encounter someone..

There isn't really anywhere we can go that would be 100% dog free.

 Quote: tanya jasperelli

I read somewhere else on the forum that if I tighten the leash before he reacts then he might just be reacting because he's reading my cues.. I don't want him to think that I am tensing up so he does the same... so I act as naturally as possible until he reacts..

Sorry I should have elaborated. By "react" I didn't mean to tighten up the leash. By react I meant deal with the situation; by doing some obedience, playing tug, or otherwise distracting the dog from his "enemy". Try and pre-emptively gain his attention. You are correct, you should not tighten the leash if he is not reacting.

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It's just so confusing... if you encounter another reactive dog and the marker training fails - lets say you didn't catch it early enough - would you fall back on the dd collar to calm him, or just ignore his behavior and walk away?? How would you handle the situation??

I have had this situation happen in the past and in fact it still occurs with my reactive dog. I chalk it up to handler error, tell the dog NO and remove him. Others may have better advice for you. If I didn't keep enough distance between us and the other dog for the training stage we are in, or failed to notice the other dog, it is my mistake as a trainer and I have to do better next time. I set my dog up for failure, and I want him to succeed. Hopefully others will answer this question for you as well.

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We don't really have a loose dog problem here, so the dogs we encounter are either walking on a leash with their owners, or in their yards... there really isn't a way to avoid them. Even in the hiking trails we walk in we usually encounter a couple of dogs... I've tried walking at different times of the day but we usually encounter someone..

Acutally this is very good. You will know the homes that are likely to have dogs outside, and can see leashed and controlled dogs coming, which gives you lots of time to prepare. Simply increase the distance between you and the other dog (cross the street, etc) and work on his focus using treats or his favourite squeaky toy. If the other dog is a good distance away it will be easier to gain control of him before he flies off the handle. Try and avoid hiking trails for now or anywhere you might unexpectedly encounter a dog. The goal is to start with his distraction as far away as possible and as he gets good at controlling his emotions, gradually decrease the distance.

Edit: you may learn something from this thread. The poster has a dog aggressive dog and lower down on the page she describes how she was able to help her dog. http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/233811/page/0/fpart/1