Quote: stevezorn

Carol, I don't treat my dogs like they are kids. They get very offended if I try to. They like being dogs and respect and enjoy having me as the their leader. I believe that they live much happier lives without the threat of being attacked by one of my other dogs. How many successful wolf packs do you see when there is constant fighting amongst it members? None!
They survive because they have a strong leader that does not tolerate infighting.

I am not saying treat them like kids.....I was simply using that as an example.....

I agree they respect and enjoy lives with us as leaders.

Sorry I complicated it too much with the "kid" reference.

I'm with Steve on this one.

while my dogs all have their own crates here and I respect that as their safe place I do not allow crate guarding behavior. Every dog here is expected to follow the rules and the rules are, control your impulses in the house and crates.

I don't allow wild barking, territorial barking,animal aggression or any of that type of behavior in the crates in the house. With that said, if some strange dog (from outside the family pack)or strange person came in to my house that would be different. They know the difference.

Every dog in this house knows the rules, and abides by them or they get a verbal correction or (if needed ) a bark collar. I don't expect them to like each other but they must tolerate each other. I've raised dozens of dogs in a multi dog household and this is how it works best for me.

Our dogs that are loose don't have any interest in the crated dogs, because from day one they don't get any reinforcement from it. Fence fighting and getting a reaction from another dog is reinforcing to many dogs and can be a big pain in the butt if allowed. I'm actually surprised how many experienced dog people can't manage their dogs in a non training situation like being around other crated or kenneled dogs.

To be honest, I don't think any of us are disagreeing with Steve.

This behavior is not reinforced or tolerated at my place either, and to be honest, I have not had any issues with it unless you count for puppies or new additions when they are first learning the rules.

At the risk of being shot down....I don't think there are really the 2 sides to this as it looks like there are. If there are, I'm missing the big disagreement. Everyone w/the exception of Steve agrees that crates are safe havens, and absolutely everyone, including Steve, agrees that while no one is allowed to pester a crated dog, a ridiculous show of aggression from the crated dog is not permitted either.

I don't think crate guarding is the same thing as getting upset when an uncrated dog bothers you while you are minding your own business in your own crate. Am I the only one who was talking about when the dog is IN the crate only? None of mine could care less about their crates unless they are in it and a rude passerby chooses to (as Connie put it) stick their "doggy face" in it.

It seems to happen more with new dogs, or dogs new to being crated. Except for one of mine, none of them pay much attention to each other in their crates. There are 2 that hate each other with a passion I have rarely seen, and if I am not right there, they will try to fence fight. As long as I am walking alongside the loose one when he walks by the enemy's crate, nothing happens. I had one get out of a crate in the garage though, and boy was THAT noisy!

IMO, as long as you are present, even the "rudest" dog should respect his crated colleagues.

Kathy, keep in mind you have 2 loose dogs and one crated. How would you feel if you were in a cage and couldn't go anywhere, and 2 loose dogs were bothering you or otherwise threatening you? I think your dog is behaving normally, although not desirably.

It almost seemed to me that how he's acting is as it being out of frustration due to the fact he's in crate, their out of crate and he's not out "ruling the roost" so to speak? But I could be way off- It just really throws you off when they act like that- but he gets his time out of the crate on leash while sampson is in his crate (major is not crated)sooo.. I'm confused I guess if its something I should just ignore and keep dogs away from him or if a dog happens to wander thru the room and he goes off I should be correcting? (I do have bark collar by the way) Dog pack behavior is a little complicated -ugh Is it ok to have other dogs out when hes crated? Or is that complicating things

I'm talking about when the dog is in the crate. My dogs could care less about the crate when they are NOT in it.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the dogs IN the crates are not allowed to act territorially towards anyone that is part of our family whether it be dog, cat or person.

I also don't allow the dogs that are loose to go near the crate area of our house to sniff around or be nosy.

Everyone is expected to display impulse control when they are in the house.

Since we do have a kennel here, and have had large numbers of dogs (many of them tough, dominant individuals) I am a pretty big control freak about this and make sure both parties understand the rules from day one (both parties being the dog in the kennel, and the dog who is loose) I do know that if it's someone other than me or Ed walking a dog through our kennel the rules don't apply. It's a leadership issue, for sure.

I get emails all the time from experienced dog trainers who have issues with things like this, so maybe I'm just jaded

Kathy, YOU are the leader and if you choose to have one dog out that's the way it is. Don't feel sorry for the dog in the crate, or worry about whether it's "fair". Dogs don't think that way. You are doing the right thing.

Jen,
Just so their is no mistake I do believe crates are safe havens for my dogs. If I feel that one dog is not respecting another dog's private space then I will correct the problem. My goal is that this is not a problem. As a part of this, I like to teach my dogs that they do not have to feel that they need to be safe from MY other dogs. I prefer that they live together comfortably and I find that because of this when needed they will work together to protect me or another pack member.
The person that lived in my home prior to me was a drug dealer. I did not know this at the time I moved there. After moving from the city I felt that I wouldn't have to deal with this kind of stuff anymore. I was wrong! They sell drugs in middle of nowhere also! I have had a few instances where some less than desirable people showed up to buy drugs and once this past summer when two guys came over at 5:30AM and wanted to kick the crap out of the former inhabitant and anyone that was in the house. They tried to kick in the door after I answered it and had words with them. Brutus (my AmStaff) and Elba (Caleb's Mom) chased them back to their truck before anything happened to me. Just a month or so ago Wilhelm (4 legged leader of the pack) and Elba worked together to chase some Coyotes away that wanted my puppy, Vlad. I was much happier that they went after the bad guys and the coyotes than each other.

From Cindy:
" I'm actually surprised how many experienced dog people can't manage their dogs in a non training situation like being around other crated or kenneled dogs."

Cindy, I couldn't agree with you more here, as well! It seems that in our quest to have the "best", "toughest", "meanest" competition or protection dogs too many trainers actually encourage this behavior. I find it ridiculous.

I'm a little prejudiced on this because I own one of his son's, but, please look up Melanie Becker's retired dual purpose police dog(street-narcotics). His name is Andy Maly Vah. Look at his accomplishments. He has AKC obedience titles, Sch3 and this past summer at more than nine years old a PSA1. All of this was done after retirement from the police dept. High in trial in virtually every thing he was entered in. He is also a Certified Therapy Dog that visits old folks homes and kids! All this and he lives in her house with other dogs. Read the text, look at the pictures, watch the videos. In my opinion you will not find a more complete dog than Andy.
Just my opinion, but, I think that this is what we should be striving for!

I agree with you Steve, in that it is quite amazing to see such a balanced dog--the one who can do the bitework and therapy work...I've seen a dog like that myself. But keep in mind, different people have different dogs and purposes. Not to mention, some people only have access to Delta for therapy work certification and from my understanding bitework dogs are disqualified from that program.

Connie, when you said something about "doggy face in the crate" I giggled in my coffee. I stuck my "doggy face" in my pups crate a while back and he Growled at me! Stupid me, huh? But...

IMO, this behaviour was totally unacceptable. THe pup loves to snuggle on the couch...why would that be any different in his crate? I just leaned in to pat him g'night when I was closing the gate one night and when he growled, I was very surprised. Of course, I was invading "his" space. But, ultimately, his behaviour is unacceptable IMO.

Thus, I continued to work at it, giving him a bit of space at first(IE: Not sticking my whole doggy body in there) and then working into that. IMO, he needs to know it is ok.

DIfferent story doing this with a big dog. ? But if true leadership is established, this growling or guarding shouldn't happen, right?

To the OP, I absolutely think the crate guarding behaviour is unacceptable. IMO, the other dogs can be kept back to comfort level for the crated dog, and work up to closer with treats and praise to the one who is calm in the crate.