Assuming things about my dog because I do the sport is very closed minded. You know nothing about him. You don't even know whether he has been in a situation where he has defended me or not. I am sure you enjoy training your dog as I do mine. Plenty of "street" dogs are worthless even being trained in "real" life situations and some normal average pets kicks the shit out of the "bad guy". You can NOT predict how anyone's dog will react in that given situation. You seem to have used E collar topics to voice an opinion about the sport you know nothing about. You said yourself your a beginner so how can you possibly talk with authority on someone's dog you have never seen. You simply assume that since I CHOSE to do schutzhund with this dog he can't defend in a real situation. You are correct about one thing, I doubt highly my dog will ever have to prove that and thank God for that. His mere presents deter people.

Making any assumtion about a dog and their training can be fatal. They are animals not machines. I just happen to know what I have and have the faith to be confident in the animal I walk down the street at night <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Good luck again and the best to you and your dog and hope our dogs do not have to prove anything in a real situation.

In the Administration of my site I mention that it is my option to request individuals use their correct name on their posts.

No one likes a good debate more than I do, but when the posts get aggressive then I will require people to change their login name to their full name.

WAK4 has been asked to change his login name to his real name

I assume nothing when it comes to your dog, however, I truly believe that sport ruins a dogs natural instincts and ways, breaks the dog down. At this time I also believe that is what a shock collar will do.

Rather than taking a dog and shaping it and its natural behaviors, from what I see, sporting techniques force a dog into certain ways. Foot step tracking, "full" bites on a sleeve, hanging on while taking a beating from a stick. What purpose do these things serve, outside of the sporting field? They are unnatural in the dog and breaks down the dog. Mr. Frawley himself wrote in his tracking article that foot step tracking is ineffective for real life. It is meant for sport. The same will go for the full bite, and hanging on. Assuming the dog gets that far in a live bite.

In doing these things, the dog is not what is was. It may defend, but in some of the sporting foundations, I think it is becoming apparent in todays world that sport does not translate into real life.

You are assuming because your dog hits a sleeve on a field, it will protect anywhere. I pose this: Take your dog onto a roof or an agility walkover and have your helper attack you. You will see a different dog. You will see how stress affects the dog.

Look at Schutzhund when it was first developed...it was very different than what you see today. It has become a sport, which is a game, not real life. You believe your dog is proven to protect because it will hit a sleeve. Will he hit real flesh now? Will he get worked up against someone not in a bite suit? In sport training, I am confident in saying your dog is focused on that suit or sleeve, not the person.

Yes, I am a novice, and will openly admit it. However, I am educating myself and learning, which was the point of joining this board. I pose questions, I offer my opinion if I have one.

The problem with "sport" training is that,of course,it is an arbitrary routine that a good trainer can get a weak dog to perform,therefore,it is not indicative of a dog's true nerve or what behavior he might exhibit in a real confrontation in an unfamiliar,stressful situation. We do import titled dogs,after thorough evaluation,and many make fine dual purpose patrol dogs. This is after MUCH additional training.I have also washed out many titled dogs for low/mediocre drive and weak nerves etc etc..Sport training can be a good foundation to build on,IF the dog has a solid temperament,nerve and drive.

This post is addressed specifically to Bill Kurz:

You make many statements that simply aren't complete. All sport training does not "ruin a dog's natural instincts;" an e-collar, used properly, won't either. Moreover, some dogs that bite sleeves will eat you alive for real, so I wouldn't be too hasty in thinking that a thrown tennis ball would be enough to make all sport dogs run--all sport dogs ARE NOT fixed on the equipment, and, even if some are, there are simple things that can be done to refocus those on an unsuited man. If you are a novice, it would seem to me that you should be very open-minded, rather than so close-minded. Finally, remember this: you will remain a novice until you have trained hundreds of dogs and spent years watching dogs; the great trainer, even after 30 years of training, keeps an open mind. These are just a few thoughts. Of course, just tell me to go to hell if you disagree, and I won't waste any more time with silling musings.

k

Bill,

Thanks for finally signing your name. But you are still assuming that because my dog hits a sleeve he won't defend me. That is a stero type. What I am saying to you is I know my dog and what his capabilites are and when he is at home is different than what he is on the field. He knows the difference between sport and someone who is acting suspicious. And yes my helper has put my dog in "real" situations. He is firm believer in having a rounded animal. My dog has been in woods, buildings up on picnic tables etc. Many people that I know in the sport have dogs that would eat you in a heart beat yet they are still very good sport dogs. I understand your points on real vs. sport dog. What my point is that there are serious sport dogs and some for the game but there are dogs for the street that have no business being there and some that are priceless. We have to look at the individual dog, not the sport or training it does. You obviously do not like the sport but don't fault others and their dogs because they do. I do not fault that you don't do the sport or the training your doing. Stero typing dogs you have never seen or saying what someone else's dog would do in a real situation is arrogant. That's like saying all tall people can play basketball. What I believe my dog will do in a real situation is not because he does Schutzhund but because I know what he is off the field. Thanks for your opinions it's been an interesting discussion.

Wow! How did a simple question on the validity of E collars turn into an argument on the value of sport training. I had an Otis son who's drive for the ball was so high that I could not safly out him. By using low level stimulation (2) I was able to play two ball without starting a fight with him. Like anything else E collars are tools used in dog training. They have a place as does the prong. Learning when and how to use it is the key. Ed has a good video on just this.

Great discussion! Nothing like a little heat to get the juices sizzling. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I've never been involved in "sport" training, only field training (duck hunting) and house obedience. And that has been fine. And I always felt a barking dog will drive the bad guys away, and as Ed wrote somewhere, a bad person coming into your home through a barking GS is gonna take more than a dog to deter (or something like that--sorry Ed if I mangled your meaning).
But I have been researching sport training, including Sch., and I see a lot of value in it as a sport where my dog and I can play/bond/work together, and a place where I can improve as a trainer. And I have been wondering about E collars, as well. I never used a prong or E collar because I never needed them, though I am sure open to the notion that training in the past might have been easier with one or the other. So all opinions on sport training and E collars are most welcome. Keep 'em coming. John

Discussions of what sport dogs will and won’t do aside; Ecollars are the best tool ever invented for training dogs no matter if they are pets, working dogs or sport dogs.

Note that this does NOT apply to MISuse, only to appropriate use. There are modern methods that have been developed in the last 5 years or so that are quantum leaps ahead of what used to be done before then.

May trainers use Ecollars only for problem solvers but that use usually causes MORE problems that then must be solved. By the time those problems are solved, the original problem is back again. Those people who say that Ecollars are good only for problem solving rarely have a thorough understanding of modern use.

As far as pissing a dog off the opposite is the case. Since the dog doesn’t associate the correction with the handler directly (only indirectly, through the command) there isn’t the confrontation that often occurs with leash corrections.

Dogs of all sensitivities can be worked more easily on the Ecollar than on any leash and correction collar.

The issue of “shocking the dog” always comes up and for this I say that dogs will process pain differently than humans. I bet that all of us have had the experience of getting down on the floor and bumping shoulders with our dogs in play. Many of us during that play have had the experience of catching a fang in the head. Not a bite, just an exuberant dog hitting you in the head with one of his fangs. Or even kabonging you with his head. For most of US, that’s the end of the game. Sometimes you see stars and the pain is INTENSE. Yet this must happen when the dogs play amongst themselves yet you rarely if ever see this type of reaction from the dogs. They are having too much fun to feel it.

We’ve all had the experience of our dog getting motivated (going into a high drive situation) and the same correction we gave a few minutes before, when he was calm, has absolutely no effect. And so we give corrections that jerk his feet off the ground. Often they have no effect either.

A few years back I heard, in front of my house, the sound of tires screeching followed by a “crunch” that means that something got hit. I went out front and saw that a dog had been hit. He was screaming in pain, spinning in circles with the bone sticking out of one of his rear legs. There was blood everywhere. I went back into the house to get a gun and end his suffering. When I emerged the screaming had stopped. I figured the dog had either died or had passed out. But neither had occurred. Across the street from me there lived a man who had a bitch that just happened to be in heat. He was walking her and the injured dog had caught the scent. He was limping after her, down the street, having forgotten about the pain of a few moments ago.

What’s my point??? Dogs don’t process pain in the same way that we do. Just because something hurts us, doesn’t necessarily mean that it hurts the dogs. I can feel the lowest level of stimulation that my Pro 1000 puts out and so can most people. But I’ve come across many people (at my seminars I have everyone feel what the stimulation feels like) who can’t feel a level 1 stimulation at all. I’ve seen a few who can’t feel a level 2. Yet I’ve seen many dogs that can’t feel a level 1 or 2. Just about all can feel the level 3.

But think back to that injured dog. Think back to your own dog when there’s agitation going on and he ignores being snatched off his feet by a correction while wearing a pinch collar.

Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com

Sport dogs are just that - sport dogs. I want to have fun and control over my dog while he is at an elevated excited stage. But I want to be able to walk him in a crowded street at a fair and to be a good pet. Our local K-9 department (who has come to our club sessions) have dogs on the street who do not bite anything when the need arises not even the sleeve, but also can not be walked saftly down a city street because of fear aggression. Yes, because my dog bites a sleeve, he may never protect me in real life just because he does schutzhund! Thats why I have a gun! But hell, he sure does put on a show when commanded to alert, enough to keep most away and I have used it. So why can't we have fun in the sport? Maybe their should be a new catagory "sport dogs" as there is for show dogs, working dogs. Would that help?
I have seen many sport dogs who would love to get at the helper for real and police street dogs who coward at a treat (lives next door). Broke his chain as I walked down the street, he came charging at me barking and growling I ran towards him yelling and the dog turn tail and ran. I new the dog would not bite as the officer told me weeks before. As for ecollars I have watch 3 dogs in our club go into total advoidance from the use of the collar. I would never put one on my dog. They can do a lot of damage if one is not used correctly or if the dogs temperment can not handle it.
Nancy