Quote: mike armstrong

 Quote: kimberley voyles

. . . Back in July last year, while I was walking my dog to the store, a small dog attacked. . .

I'm curious as to what exactly you've done in the last 14 months other than have someone else walk him.

 Quote: kimberley voyles

So, from what I have shared so far, was my dog wrong for protecting me and himself? Was he the aggressor? Is my dog out of control?

He didn't kill the other dog to "protect" you.
He may not have started the aggressive action, but you won't able to control him and prevent the fight.
Out of control? Totally!

 Quote: kimberley voyles

I spent time training him, he walks with a loose leash, he does not even pay attention to dogs. He sits and stays when people pass. In 8 years, I have never had a problem. But animal control said it was my fault.

Sounds like he must have a decent temperament 99% of the time, because I don't think you've ever been in control of him. But during that other 1% - when prey drive or aggression kicks in - you're screwed.
This is a great resource here for DVDs, podcasts, articles, etc., to learn about training and taking control, and to help you decide how much you think you're capable of doing yourself and when you need professional help - and what to look for in outside help.

Mike

Thank you Mike. There was another situation, but I was not walking him, somebody else was, they were walking all three of my dogs. I have since realized the mistakes I was making, I have learned that just having somebody bigger who was suppose to be more in control of the dogs and walking the dogs at night was not the solution. I needed to work on the dog aggression, curb the prey drive, I have been learning about dog behavior in packs, I have taken the two youngest dogs to professional training, private lessons, since Thora had such little leash manners I did not do group training.

I do plan to take advantage of all the items and info this site offers.

 Quote: Jeff Brosius

 Quote: Kimberley Voyles

I have not taken Cerberus to a professional trainer, but when I got him, I read about the breeds.

Due respect, ma'am, but reading about, and getting professional instruction, are quite the opposite. I'd rather not attempt my own knee surgery, just because I read about it.

Your dog is a Pit Bull, no? Training a strong breed such as PB takes a great deal of skill. It sounds to me that you might have gotten in a bit o'er your head.

 Quote:

But animal control said it was my fault. I did not have control of my dog on the leash. I felt terrible. A little girls pet died. Because I couldn't control my dog?

Again, due respect, but yes, it was your fault that your dog killed another dog.

 Quote:

Was he aggressive? I just did not see it. I did not feel he was aggressive and felt the entire situation was the unleashed dogs owner's fault. The trainers refused to work with him, due to his age, breed and because he had killed a dog.

Not entirely the other dog owner's fault, ma'am. Some of your fault as well for not having your dog under control.

And the time to spend with professional trainers was about 7-7.5 years ago.

 Quote:

So, from what I have shared so far, was my dog wrong for protecting me and himself? Was he the aggressor? Is my dog out of control?

He wasn't protecting you. That's a common misconception, but it's still wrong.

Thank you for your response Jeff.

Even though my dog was not the agressor, because I could not keep my dog from killing the dog, it is my fault the dog died.

I do understand that my dog needed to respond to my commands, and up till that day, I thought I had 100% control of him. Like I said, just the day before, he sat when I told him to sit and the little dog was barking at us and running around in front of us. If I could get my dog into a sit stay, I had control of him. I did not have time to get him into that sit stay and I had not trained him to abort or to stop what he was doing and return to me, I never had a situation like that before, I always watched for other dogs and made him sit.

I did do more then just learn about the breeds of my dog, I took him out into a parking lot and changed directions teaching him to pay attention to me and I would stop when the leash would get tight, that is how I taught him to keep slack in the leash and sit when I stopped.

Kimberley,

First off, I want to express my empathy with you and your situation. Many years ago, that could have been me. I know you feel a mix of anger at the other dog/owner, guilt for Cerebus having killed that girl's pet and general frustration at the situation.

The people here really know their stuff when it comes to dog behavior and training. Please don't be defensive--try to take all criticism as constructive. I say that because some of your replies seem a bit defensive. We all understand that the owner of the off leash dog is partly to blame. But ultimately, as you have found out, the responsibility lies with you.

That responsibility emanates in large part from you choice to own a large, powerful dog with a strong prey drive (you knew he killed small animals before).

The reality is, Cerebus is too much dog for you, at this point in your life. You must either re-home him or learn to be in 100% control at all times.

 Quote: Kimberley Voyles

I did not train him with such distractions I simply watched for them and avoided them.

This was your HUGE fatal mistake. Distraction training MUST be done with any dog, for the safety of the dog (e.g. recall on in a high automobile traffic area). It must be done especially diligently with a dog like yours. Thinking you could avoid those distractions was shockingly and unrealistically naive.

It is not easy to have and train a dog like Cerebus. It is much like having a full time job. I have a dog similar to yours--a 110 lb Presa Canario with very high prey drive (Cleo). We train/work every day. We train at home, at play, at the park and on walks. Cleo is always under my control and I am always testing/proofing her.

The resources on this site are a great place to start if you are ready to dedicate yourself to the task.

If you are not prepared for this type of life, please give Cerebus to someone who is and get a cocker spaniel.

 Quote: Kimberley Voyles

Thank you for your response Jeff.

Even though my dog was not the agressor, because I could not keep my dog from killing the dog, it is my fault the dog died.

It's partially your fault, yes. It's also partially the fault of the other dog owner.

Difficult lesson, and a painful one to be sure. Learn from it, then move on. It sounds to me as if you've done a lot of self-analysis and introspection, and that's a fundamentally healthy thing.

A question that has been asked....and still not answered...is:

What exactly have you done over the past 14 months to address this situation with Cerebus?

Quite frankly, I'm having a difficult time with this.

Less than 24 hours ago you were questioning if your dog was out of control after stating he lunged, knocked you down, dragged you, and then had to be told twice to drop the smaller dog.

Less than 24 hours ago you were seriously questioning if your dog is aggressive, despite him having killed and maimed numerous small animals and killing a small dog.

Based on these questions posted less than 24 hours ago

 Quote:

Was he aggressive? I just did not see it. I did not feel he was aggressive and felt the entire situation was the unleashed dogs owner's fault..... So, from what I have shared so far, was my dog wrong for protecting me and himself? Was he the aggressor? Is my dog out of control?

I'm having a really difficult time believing this statement, posted a few hours ago:

 Quote:

I have since realized the mistakes I was making...Even though my dog was not the agressor, because I could not keep my dog from killing the dog, it is my fault the dog died.

Sorry to be harsh, but I think you were hoping for a different reaction to your original post. Hoping people here would go along with your belief that "I did not feel he was aggressive and felt the entire situation was the unleashed dogs owner's fault."

If I'm wrong and misunderstood your words and you do, indeed, realize your mistakes then we need to go back to my original question:

What exactly have you done over the past 14 months to address this situation with Cerebus?

You caught a lot of the same things I noticed about her other posts. Very contradictory in many statements. Not harsh, just calling it like you see it................

 Quote: lisa simms

You caught a lot of the same things I noticed about her other posts. Very contradictory in many statements. Not harsh, just calling it like you see it................

This is a board that does call it as they see it ... a GOOD thing.

And when a poster who has made serious mistakes decides to rectify them, this is a board that is incredibly helpful and knowledgeable.

Fourteen months is a long time to be blaming someone else 100% when your own lack of control was a huge factor ("I did not feel he was aggressive and felt the entire situation was the unleashed dogs owner's fault...."), and the time to start some serious work is today.

I cannot say it better than Eric did:

"The resources on this site are a great place to start if you are ready to dedicate yourself to the task. ... If you are not prepared for this type of life, please give Cerebus to someone who is ..."

Lives are at stake here, including the life of your dog, who will end up PTS if his owner doesn't step up.

Sometimes its hard to be honest with yourself about a situation and taking responsibility is a good thing. My dogs are not perfect by any means, which only means that I am not perfect. Time, training and work are needed in these situations. No one can say that she hasn't been trying to learn. I have learned a lot from this website

Edited by Lisa Simms (09/20/2009 07:42 PM)
Edit reason: adding a sentence

 Quote: eric sacks

Kimberley,

First off, I want to express my empathy with you and your situation. Many years ago, that could have been me. I know you feel a mix of anger at the other dog/owner, guilt for Cerebus having killed that girl's pet and general frustration at the situation.

The people here really know their stuff when it comes to dog behavior and training. Please don't be defensive--try to take all criticism as constructive. I say that because some of your replies seem a bit defensive. We all understand that the owner of the off leash dog is partly to blame. But ultimately, as you have found out, the responsibility lies with you.

That responsibility emanates in large part from you choice to own a large, powerful dog with a strong prey drive (you knew he killed small animals before).

The reality is, Cerebus is too much dog for you, at this point in your life. You must either re-home him or learn to be in 100% control at all times.

 Quote: kimberley voyles

I did not train him with such distractions I simply watched for them and avoided them.

This was your HUGE fatal mistake. Distraction training MUST be done with any dog, for the safety of the dog (e.g. recall on in a high automobile traffic area). It must be done especially diligently with a dog like yours. Thinking you could avoid those distractions was shockingly and unrealistically naive.

It is not easy to have and train a dog like Cerebus. It is much like having a full time job. I have a dog similar to yours--a 110 lb Presa Canario with very high prey drive (Cleo). We train/work every day. We train at home, at play, at the park and on walks. Cleo is always under my control and I am always testing/proofing her.

The resources on this site are a great place to start if you are ready to dedicate yourself to the task.

If you are not prepared for this type of life, please give Cerebus to someone who is and get a cocker spaniel.

I apologize if I sound defensive. This is a very difficult situation for me and part of my coming here is in seeking help. I am still fighting with myself, denial. In taking responsibility for my part in any situation my dogs are involved in is having to admit I made a mistake, several of them.. In my eyes, I let my dogs down.

I did not have any problems for 8 years. I use to attend school and Cerberus would have to stay in the car, during the evenings for an hour, then a 15 min break, then a half hour. The way I justified this was every evening we went roller blading. We went to a large parking structure at the court house, as it was totally enclosed and nobody ever went there. I would run Cerberus till he just didn't want to run any more. That is where I did most of my training with him.

I have run into many people along the way who were more un educated then I was about dogs in general, those who yell, "don't worry, my dog is friendly" in the park while their dog runs about. Those who unleash their dogs in Petco, again, because their dog is friendly. I learned to never assume that people know enough for it to be safe to "take a chance" this is how I came to avoid potential situations.

 Quote: sarah morris

A question that has been asked....and still not answered...is:

What exactly have you done over the past 14 months to address this situation with Cerebus?

Quite frankly, I'm having a difficult time with this.

Less than 24 hours ago you were questioning if your dog was out of control after stating he lunged, knocked you down, dragged you, and then had to be told twice to drop the smaller dog.

Less than 24 hours ago you were seriously questioning if your dog is aggressive, despite him having killed and maimed numerous small animals and killing a small dog.

Based on these questions posted less than 24 hours ago

 Quote:

Was he aggressive? I just did not see it. I did not feel he was aggressive and felt the entire situation was the unleashed dogs owner's fault..... So, from what I have shared so far, was my dog wrong for protecting me and himself? Was he the aggressor? Is my dog out of control?

I'm having a really difficult time believing this statement, posted a few hours ago:

 Quote:

I have since realized the mistakes I was making...Even though my dog was not the agressor, because I could not keep my dog from killing the dog, it is my fault the dog died.

Sorry to be harsh, but I think you were hoping for a different reaction to your original post. Hoping people here would go along with your belief that "I did not feel he was aggressive and felt the entire situation was the unleashed dogs owner's fault."

If I'm wrong and misunderstood your words and you do, indeed, realize your mistakes then we need to go back to my original question:

What exactly have you done over the past 14 months to address this situation with Cerebus?

To address the situation with Cerberus, I hired a dog walker who could be able to control him. I only let Cerberus go out on a walk with a muzzle on. I contacted several trainers trying to find one to work with Cerberus, I also wanted to have some sort of temperament test done on him. One trainer came over, we discussed the types of training options and he felt a "shock collar" would be best.

He put the collar on Cerberus. I told him a behavior I wanted to correct was when some people are at the gate, he jumps up on the gate. So, we went outside, he walked down the driveway, toward the gate and when Cerberus ran toward the gate and jumped on it, the trainer "zapped" Cerberus. The zap was so much it doubled Cerberus like he was punched in the stomach. Cerberus looked at me, looked back at the trainer who was walking toward the gate, the trainer did it again, this time Cerberus yelped. I took the collar off.

Also, in the past few months, I use a prong collar on all the dogs, prior they all wore a harness. I enrolled Thora and Tantrum into private obediance training with reputable trainer. I have not found a trainer to work with Cerberus due to his age and having killed the dog.