Quote: tracy collins

I agree with Randy. I don't try to reinforce some perceived pecking order among the dogs--they are all treated the same by me, and no displays of aggression among the dogs are ever allowed by me. Ever. I decide who gets along. They don't get to decide that or anything else. But what you're seeing doesn't seem like real aggression to me. It's barrier frustration that's being redirected.

I couldn't agree more. And there is no aggression to another pack member allowed, period, no matter what the trigger is. Why would I allow one of the dogs to usurp my role as both rule-maker and protector? Why would I ever allow one member of the pack to be harassed by another?

"... yesterday the smaller chow REALLY scared my little guy into shock. He couldn't walk normal for about 30 minutes and threw up everything the rest of the day. They've all had to stay outside as we had our floors refinished last week." ... Separate them. (Eric, you're very right that it's not fair to allow it.)

 Quote: kristel smart

This isn't a group of dogs that I would leave outside together unsupervised.

"Let them work it out" is in my top five of the worst pieces of advice anyone can give about dogs. JMO.

 Quote: Sharon Empson

bob: I have a JRT mix and I am curious how you stopped the redirected aggression he was displaying against the other dog. Cody is neutered and is about 3 years old. Cody has just started this, I correct him and he stops, but I would like to stop it completely. Cody goes for the lowest in the pack Terra, she immediately submits. He gets so excited when just about anything happens that I want to nip this in the bud.
Help appreciated.
Sharon

Hi, Sharon,

It would be better to start a new thread with your question. Thanks!

(You could include a link to Bob's post if you wanted.)

Re-directed aggression seems to be what's happening so I would still like to know if it can be stopped.

I know all dogs are not alike and separation is a short term fix but it seems un-feasable to keep them separated full time. This has just started recently so my options have changed from previous.

We selected these dogs on their ability to be outside most of the time due to my allergies. We allow them in the house most of the time we're home but they are outside when we are gone or sleeping (or in the yard)..

As of 2 days ago they take turns out of the crates but this can't be any kind of life for them.

Bruno didn't start this until Halo started responding to things outside the gate with him. Halo didn't start this with Strummer until Bruno started it with her.

Do the dynamics change that much with adding a 3rd dog to the mix? How likely would Halo stop if Bruno were not in the picture?

 Quote: eric dziedzic

Do the dynamics change that much with adding a 3rd dog to the mix? How likely would Halo stop if Bruno were not in the picture?

I can't speak to the aggression issue (if that is what is going on) but yes, the dynamics chance that much with the addition of a third dog, especially if there is no strong pack leader present. Many folks on this forum successfully keep three to five or six dogs in their home, but I think each and evey one of those folks are confident in their leadership abilities. The more time these dogs spend outside together, the more opportunities they are going to have to figure/sort this out on their own terms... not something you want happening, IMO.

I do understand your desire to keep them together. But I don't think that is in the best interest of the dogs. Mine are broken into 3 groups and they are much happier. Initally it was awakard, but the awakardness was my issue not theirs. I still work them and play with them.

It is not safe for the dogs to be left together alone, fights can happen too fast. It would be horrible to come home to or awaken to an injured or dead dog(s). Even if you are home and something happens that escalates into a fight how do you plan to intervene?

Have the 2 intereacted without Bruno and what happened? How is Bruno's behavior at the fence without the other 2? Regardless of a single dog or group there still needs to be rules and manners. Is everything else in place other than when the group is left outside?

Most times they are fine in every scenario you mentioned. Halo seems to go after Strummer after Bruno has gone after her recently.

Most times Bruno will run past the others (when he decides to come out. About half the time he stays on the porch). Every now and then he'll go back and tag Halo if she's in the way or following too close. She displays submission yelping and cowering (even if he doesn't touch her), then she goes after Bruno and yelps in his face. Somtimes she goes after Strummer maybe 30 min to several hours after. If Bruno doesn't, Halo seems to leave Strummer alone. Again, this has all been recent behavior. Before we adopted Halo it did not happen and yes, they have been left alone together outside for 2 years now. Bruno and Strummer were like that for 18 months prior without incident.

So how is a normal day for you with separate groups? Do your dogs spend alot of time in crates? I could possibly do this with Strummer inside, Bruno crated and Halo out while we're gone, together when I'm outside with them, and Bruno out, Halo and Strummer inside at night. We did the night schedule over the winter.

Really Bruno has always been the problem and after hearing Ed's take (in 2006) on why so many aggressive dogs are put down, I was not going to let Bruno be a statistic. It has been a long road but he is going on 6 years now. Even still, I was about at my limit after this last incident. My wife talked me into keeping him so it's back to the books, this forum, training (him and us), and a behaviorist.

My mother -in-law used to bring her dogs over. The Boston Terrier gets in the face of her Belgian Travern (spelling?). The bigger dog trashed the Terrier and she said she let's them work it out. I yelled at her (again) about doing that but I'm sure she won't change.

Barrier frustration is a new term for me. Is separation the only fix or is there some training I can do to work on it? Could I be creating anxiety with something I'm doing, then they let it out in the yard on eachother?

The behaviorist who's coming said we are creating a void in pecking order but you say there should be none. Isn't their a pecking order in a natural pack, even if it is under the Alpha? I don't mind spending the money on behaviorist but only if it's good information and "finding" a good behaviorist seems nearly impossible if you're not a professional trainer yourself.

The consensus here seems to be treat them equal but on this forum I was told Bruno should be last with everything so he doesn't feel like he's Alpha. I think I'm more frustrated than they are. Thanx for helping.

My two cents:

Like anything else, any behavior that isn't based on pathology (pain? brain chemical imbalance?) can be improved or fixed with proper training. But the dogs can't do it on their own.

I'd start with some de-sensitizing training out in the yard with whatever it is that's causing the scene--another dog on the other side of the fence, I believe. You'll need to be out there, with your problem dog on a leash so that you can control him. Position yourselves far enough away from the trigger that he does not respond. When he's quiet, praise. When he reacts, correct. Gradually get closer and closer to the trigger until he is desensitized to it. Might take 5 sessions, might take a year.

More importantly, it's up to you to establish and enforce a zero-tolerance policy for any inter-pack agression or displays of dominance. If that means keeping one dog on a leash even in the house so that you can control him, so be it. No growling, no resource guarding, no food sharing, and certainly no overt agression or dominance posturing by any dog.

I won't comment on whether or not this behaviorist is good, or whether she can help you. I'm not a behaviorist. But what she's saying doesn't align with my own experience (and success) with keeping four dogs in my house that have absolutely no issues of this kind. One dog picking on another is simply unthinkable in our house, and all the dogs know it. There is no infraction that would get as swift and as stern a correction.

ETA: I think there's way too much emphasis put on the whole notion of a pack Alpha, and comparing dog behavior to wolf behavior in general. There's a lot to be learned from wolves and the social order of wild canids. But dogs haven't been wild for a hundred thousand years or more. They require the structure of strong HUMAN leadership--and they know the difference between a human and another dog. We aren't their "alpha." We are their person. IMO, dogs were happy to give up making a lot of these decisions for themselves when they mutually agreed to begin living with humans. They are much happier being told what to do and how to behave than to have to wonder what to do, or sort anything out on their own.

The trigger is the UPS truck or walkers. Living in the country, waiting for a trigger is a crap shoot but I understand the process you're talking about. We encourage them to bark at strangers for home protection. Is there a balance or will this just be not possible with dog like Bruno?

As for allowing the aggrerssive behavior, we do not. When Bruno is on leash (I have a shoulder leash for hands free) he does not usually behave this way. When he does grumble at anything on leash I pull him in close and tell him no. Escalated aggression has involved the dominant dog collar but he has bitten through three of them.

Many people here have said they never tolerate it as if it never happens in their house. It may not now, so what was done when it did happen? If you have experience to say it was corrected immediately it had to have happened.

Beyond the voice commands and leash corrections what else is there to do with a leash corrected dog who is now snarling? This point seems to be the taboo line in the sand. I have used a method from the dominant dog video but won't even mention it here or anywhere because most people think it's cruel. Even so, Bruno has destroyed 3 DD collars using this method.

I'm willing to make alot of changes if I have to, but I want to make the right changes. This variance of knowledge makes it real hard to be consistent.

If he bit through the dominant dog collar, it wasn't sized correctly to begin with. Its physically impossible for a dog to bite through a properly sized DD collar.

Three dogs is a pack, of which you are clearly not the leader.