Good luck with your dog. I hope that it gets resolved without surgery.

I personally, wouldn't give my dogs any caffine.

 Quote: anne jones

... I personally, wouldn't give my dogs any caffine.

You are right.

http://www.dog-health-guide.org/dogpoisoning.html#Caffeine

and
" Caffeine (from coffee, coffee grounds, tea, or tea bags) stimulates the central nervous and cardiac systems, and can cause vomiting, restlessness, heart palpitations, and even death within hours. " from http://lacetoleather.com/fataltodogs.html

"So anyway, we have done the vaseline oil since we have been home and he said to wait a bit and then give her the laxative. Then to feed her just a little bit of food to get her digestive juices going and try and get the feces moving. That's our plan for the evening! Our appointment to do whatever is needed next is at 12.30 tomorrow afternoon."

That little bit of food means just that: a little bit of semi-solid food (such as a mixed baby food). Did he give you a small enema to take home as well? (I looked up in Merck: "Enema solutions are frequently used to moisten and soften feces making them easier to pass. Warm isotonic saline or tap water (5-10 mL/kg) with or without a mild soap (without hexachlorophene) to act as an irritant is practical and effective." But this would not be anything I would do without checking with the same vet.)

Also, did he mention regular walking for peristalsis? And has he provided a stool-softener?

Did he mention water to help soften the stool?


As for the bones: Yes, that can be a later topic. I do want to point out that going from diarrhea to round marbles indicates a problem of some length of time. Not seeing formed logs for a long time would always be a matter of concern, which I realize you didn't understand and which I'm pointing out only for other readers. Soft pudding or water and hard balls can be two sides of the same coin and both indicate a problem. This is why we jump on both of these conditions in threads here -- they can't be allowed to continue because of the possibility of what they may be indicating back up the line. It seems like we talk about "logs" a lot here (and we do), but it's an important indicator of proper GI function.

eta
I also want to add, based on the vet manuals I just consulted, that kibble-fed dogs are at least as vulnerable to constipation that goes on long enough to become impaction as dogs who are raw-fed. I'm reminded too that making sure our dogs are hydrated, no matter what their food, is critical to helping to keep stools from hardening and also moving them along.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/17/2010 01:41 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Is the laxative a stool softener or a stimulant?

Brenda, nothing here is your fault. These things happen. The only reason any of us here know about them is because it happened to our dogs or we read it from folks whose dogs were affected.

Brenda, I just want to say that I hope all of this is resolved this evening without having to go the surgery route. Keeping the paws crossed for you guys!

 Quote: brenda mitchell

... My husband wants me to ask you all - is there any alternative to surgery? There isn't the technology here in Estonia as there is in the States ....

Well, this is the absolute opposite of advanced technology, but depending on where the mass is, the "head of it" that is "too big to pass" with "everything behind it .... building up" may be able to be digitally removed. The shorter colon (shorter than our own) of the dog means that the mass is more likely to be closer to the rectum.

So I have heard/read of lubrication with a glycerine suppository followed by a well-lubricated gloved finger to help break it up and remove pieces.

I'm sorry that I don't know how to describe this more delicately.


PS
I would consider this to be a vet procedure, because I am picturing the walls of the colon already being stretched and maybe prone to tearing (although I really know nothing about this), and the vet knows the turns, the route, the elasticity of the colon and rectum.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/17/2010 01:53 PM)
Edit reason: PS

You are awesome, Connie, thank you! And thanks Barbara and Anne for the best wishes.

Well, I'm happy to say that it's working! We both were exhausted after the ordeal at the vet today, so we both crashed out and took naps for 2 hours. Then we took a short walk to get the vaseline oil moving around in her, and on that walk a little short log came out that was about an inch or inch and a half long! It was hard as a rock, and one thing the doctor said when he was doing the enema, was "I just hit a rock wall". We came home, gave her the laxative (it's a 3 inch tube that goes up her rectum, and I looked it up and it's a stool softener/laxative). It's supposed to work within about 20 minutes. Then... back for another walk. This time almost immediately 2 more logs came out - also really hard. But I don't think I've ever been so happy to pick up poo in my life!!! After 4 days of nothing at all coming out but liquid, anything solid was a joy!

It's almost midnight here, but we'll go back out in a little while for more walking. The vets have told me to keep her walking - they said the movement would help, but they didn't explain why. I had never heard about peristalsis before, so I looked it up and the explanation is perfect. How wonderfully made our bodies are!

After I told my husband what you said about caffeine, he said, "well I guess we won't be giving her caffeine, then!!!"

What you said about the mass being closer to the rectum. In the x-ray the vet showed me that it's several inches up, right in front of her hip bone. He said that since the head of it had gotten smaller, if it could get past hip bone then there was a chance of her passing it. So just the fact that the several inches have come out already means that at least those pieces moved forward past the hip bone and on out. So it's being pushed forward! There's a lot more that needs to come out, but we have all night! (although she's one tired puppy!)

My question is, since this is a stool softener / laxative (it's Microlax)but it's supposed to be non-irritating, how often can I give this to her? The box came in a 4-pack, and since the first one worked almost immediately, but after that she hasn't gone anymore, can I give her another one tonight? Or more than one more tonight? The vet never said how often I can do this.

Don't worry about describing anything delicately. After the day we had (2 enemas!)and hearing in detail what was coming out on the vet's end (I was holding her head), and hearing what would entail if she needed to have her intestines massaged, what you said was very soft! I think I've heard and seen everything today! (I asked the vet if it was the grossest he's ever seen and he said no, but the later his assistant said to me, "it's the grossest thing I'VE ever seen!"

What a relief!!!!

Microlax is basically a tiny enema. I looked it up and found that a second one is often indicated. After a second one, I'd probably want to ask the vet before administering a third.

Also, I would keep the dog hydrated, not feed any dense foods, continue the walks, and keep a rough tally of the inches of matter than come out so you will know when the mass the vet saw is pretty much passed.

I am betting that what you are seeing is extremely compressed feces rather than pieces of bone large enough to cause an obstruction. You mentioned soft stools while the dog was on antibiotics, but there is another side to this: Antibiotics can and often do cause hard dry stools as well. When they kill bacteria in the gut, they include the intestinal bacteria that help make stools soft and moist.

At the same time, "bad" bacteria can gain a big opportunistic foothold because of the disappearance from the playing field of "good" bacteria. Bad bacteria (like C. difficile, which resists most antibiotics) can multiply and produce waste that is toxic and can cause diarrhea.

I'm not saying that there's no chance that improperly digested bone played a part here, but I am saying that my personal betting money would probably go to the antibiotics.

That said, I don't feed weight-bearing bones. I know that I am in a tiny minority, but I have the butcher coarse-grind the back end of the bird and leave the front end as is. (There is no charge for this when I am buying whole birds, as long as I call ahead and give them a chance to do it during slow periods, because they clean the grinder after every poultry session.) And I also buy backs whenever they have saved them up for me.

I'm just saying that there are plenty of ways to get around the anxiety that you might very understandably have about weight-bearing bones, after this experience.

Again, probably 90% of raw feeders do indeed feed leg quarters and drumsticks all the time with never a bad effect, so I don't want to come across as implying that this is a bad idea. I think that fresh raw food is very important, no matter what we owners may have to do to keep ourselves comfortable about it.


eta
I think you really lucked out with this vet you found. I think that he gave you all the right help and also did not try to rush you into a costly procedure before trying less invasive methods.

Another eta: "The box came in a 4-pack"

What does the box say about re-doing it?


Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/17/2010 04:48 PM)
Edit reason: 2nd eta

PS

This guy's gut is in a uproar now, what with all this on top of an antibiotic protocol. Poor guy.

Anyway, I'd be inclined to give him a soothing diet for a few days. And if he tolerates cultured dairy well, I'd want to pick up some plain unsweetened yogurt with as many types of live cultures (listed on the container) as you can find. I would also make sure I had fish oil and E on hand.

After this impaction is out, and you see what comes next (pudding, logs, or what), then you can decide more easily what the recovery diet should be.

JMO!

eta
Sorry -- I mean "she" and "her," not "he" and "him."


Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/17/2010 04:50 PM)
Edit reason: eta