Quote: julie sloan

As for amounts. The bag says 4 1/4 is max for a dog with at least an hour of exercise a day. ANd up to 110 pounds. He weighs 97. I have been feeding him right below or at that amount, unless it is a day we get less exercise, then a little less food. He still eats three meals a day, since I or my husbnad tend to be here enough to keep him on that schedule.The owner of the pet food supply suggested that Orijen tends to "overfeed" by bag amounts, so maybe to cut back a little. It already feels like he eats so little, but as long as he is getting what he needs.

All dog foods tend to overfeed per their bag rate.

3 meals is good. At his age, he could really go down to 2 meals a day, but since there are currently stomach problems, lets leave it at 3 for now.

First thing I would try is less food. I really don't know where to tell you to start with that, though. If it were my dog, I would back off to 3-3.5 cups and monitor weight.

Also, I assume the good poops are at the beginning of the day.

Would the softer poops by chance be happening during a walk or run? Exercise can have this effect.

There is so much going on here.

Lets see what Connie and other forum members say about the food. Food isn't a big deal and easily corrected. The other things that Connie mentioned are a bigger deal and need attention. I don't want those to be overlooked.

I have to run right now, but Julie, when you mention the waste of money she let you in for with serum testing for food allergies and she comes back with "Do you want to believe a vet or the internet?", you can ask her to take out her Merck Vet Manual (I just checked both the most recent and the prior edition), go to Integumentary System: Food Allergy, and read this:

"There is no reliable diagnostic test other than a strict food elimination diet. Serologic testing and intradermal testing for food allergens have proved unreliable."

BTW, food intolerance and sensitivity, which are different from true allergies in dogs in that vomiting and/or diarrhea are much more likely and skin pruritis isn't generally a factor (re allergies: the dog's histamine receptors are located mainly in his skin, whereas ours are largely in our mucus membranes, which helps to explain the difference between allergic responses in humans and in dogs) are also diagnosed using a food trial.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2090&aid=3574
(Scroll down to the chart, to food intolerance and sensitivity.)


JMO.

I can't find a certain time that poops are different, but as you said, they tend to be softer on walks, or one that is good, then a runny one later into it.

And yes, how about it. There are always so many variables to something like this.

I am waiting for a call back from the vet, although the chiropractor who we use works there today and said she would speak to her about it in order to maybe get a quicker answer. I emailed her the onfo you posted last night, and I am also going to speak to my vet when I can.I want to see what she has to fooer on it. My husband thinks I should do a charge back on my credit card for a useless test, but I don't think that would fly with the cc co. Too much gray.



Mod note: New topic about flea prevention as possibly relating to diarrhea here: http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=311639&page=0#Post311639

Hi Julie,

I had almost the same battle with my border collie off and on for the past three years. He was a rescue so I have no idea what he was given the first year of his life, but on kibble is was a nonstop battle of him getting sick and having the runs, to trying to get him healthy to having him get sick again. The only kibble he ever could handle was innova evo chicken/turkey (not the red meat one) and even with that he would still go into cycles of loose stool, weight loss, fur loss, runny eyes. The vet could never really find a cure for it or a real reason. He would also get sick after any flea and tick treatment. We have had him on raw twice now, both times have solves all his issues, to include the sickness from the flea and tick treatment (although he still gets lathargic for a day or two). The only reason I took him off the the first time was life got in the way (moving, work, etc) but we have been back on it for eight months and I dare say he is getting a little chunky! :-) You can make it very cheap to feed, and I only paid 200 for my freezer. I speed less now than I did on kibble for him, and that isn't factoring in the vet bills.

Even with people food he shouldn't have (left over pasta, etc) he can handle a little bit now and then where before that would make him very sick.

The loose stool after walk,etc is normal, both of my guys after a run will have what looks like a normal stool, then turns a little runny.

I wish I had more answers for you, but I understand your frustration completely! I don't even want to guess what I spent on tests at the vet to never really have an answer. I just tell everyone he is my sensitive boy... and he is.

OK, I spoke with the vet who did the allergy testing. I actually had a very good conversation with her when she called me at 8:30 in the evening. She said she does her allergy testing this way and has for a very long time. She said she is familiar with what the vet manuals say, but feels like there is a lot that is and isn't in the vet manuals that is right and wrong. i.e. nothing holistic in the vet manual but alot of it still works. She also told me that the local dermatologist who has been doing allergy testing , like her, for a long long time is now using blood allergy tests for food. She said she used to get a stream of people who were trying to do elimination diets who were 6 months in with absolutely no improvement and were wanting something else. SO now I find myslef here with a result that may or may not have any value.

SO, according to the tests, which I found show a negative result for foods he probably has never eaten at least, shows he has a positive or borderline positive to cow's milk, barley, oats, tomato, and peanut. A bunch of borderline allergies which would concern me more since it looks(if this is accurate) that his body is becoming more allergic. So after discussing the options, husband and I decided to take him off anything that he is supposed to be allergic to. What harm can it do? Turns out his Orijen is safe. Treats are not, as is the peanut butter I give him his am pills with and the cheese I give him his pm pills with.

I am going to find a recipe for treats and make him some meat based treats. BUT, I need a way to fed him his pills, and I started yesterday to use the goat cheese I eat since I am allergic to cow's milk. Not lactose intolerant, but allergic. But I read another article here that says that may not be a good idea. ANy ideas on how to get his supplements in him? if I put them in wet food, he eats some and plays with some. That's a mess, and most is wasted.

Also, I have spent a good part of today reading and reading the raw diet info, and the list if suppliers which gave me some good ideas to find food. I am going to take a bit if time to see if I can get a steady supply set up, and if I can, I am going ot try it for a few weeks and see how he does. If he does well, I will buy the freezer and go for it. it sounds too good to pass up. And if he truly does have allergies, then what better way to address it, aside form discontinuing vaccines?

Now for the giardia. I talked to her about it, telling her the situation with my vet. She said if she treats giardia, she uses 10 days of Flagyl,no more, but not 5 days. She said light colored stools can be an indicator, and I feel like his stools are a little lighter than normal sometimes. ??? That brings me back to the two questions about this: One is with the difficulty getting a good diagnosis, would you not just treat it if you seriously suspect it is the culprit? And two, that still leaves me with the situation I discussed above with the fact that if he does have it, he is highly likely to get it again.

That is where I am today. I look forward to hearing what you all have to put into this. ANd thanks for all the replies.

A vet who calls you at 8:30 on Saturday night is someone who is going to work with you and help you. I would do what this person recommends, try to work with her. Calling clients after hours on the weekend is a "symptom" of dedication. Dedication gets results.

And she likes raw. She doesn't know much about it, and the office still has science diet for sale, but she will tell people maybe they want to try it. She also does titers for rabies and other shots. SInce rabies needs a titer or a shot yearly state law.

But it was not a sat night she called, but still.

Julie, I have to make this response, but I am making it on behalf of anyone else who may be reading the thread. I am not being combative with YOU at all. For one thing, it's pretty obvious that you remain skeptical about this part.


Did she address the fact that allergies in dogs cause itchy skin? And that your dog is not itchy? Perhaps she means sensitivity or intolerance?

As Doctors Foster & Smith say, "There is a distinction that needs to be made between food allergies and food intolerances. Food allergies are true allergies and show the characteristic symptoms of itching and skin problems associated with canine and feline allergies. Food intolerances can result in diarrhea or vomiting and do not create a typical allergic response. Food intolerances in pets would be similar to people who get diarrhea or an upset stomach from eating spicy or fried foods. Fortunately, both food intolerances and allergies can be eliminated with a diet free from offending agents."

"She also told me that the local dermatologist who has been doing allergy testing , like her, for a long long time is now using blood allergy tests for food." Is there any chance of getting this derm vet's name? Perhaps PM it to me? I would personally guarantee that I would not use your name in any way -- I would just like to read up on the derm vet. Blood tests for dogs with atopy have improved a lot in recent years. Blood tests for dogs to identify food allergens have not.

"She said she used to get a stream of people who were trying to do elimination diets who were 6 months in with absolutely no improvement and were wanting something else. " If the dog has food allergies and all the foods the dog has ever eaten are withdrawn from his diet ("elimination") --- that is, if the dog is allergic to a food and the food is no longer present in the diet, how then can there be "absolutely no improvement"? (Remember, the dog cannot be allergic to a food s/he has never eaten.) It's true that elimination diets are difficult and tedious, but that doesn't do anything to make RAST or ELISA tests more useful for ID-ing food allergens in dogs.

A failure of a strict elimination diet that was properly prescribed and carried out would indicate more of a failure to have ruled out atopy, flea bite dermatitis, mange, yeast, and bacterial infections (etc.) before undertaking it than it would indicate a new usefulness of food-allergen blood tests.

Finally, holistic DVMs: I have two holistic vet manuals/handbooks. Both agree completely with Merck, Foster & Smith, The BSAVA Manual of Small Animal Dermatology, Manual of Skin Diseases of the Dog and Cat, and Shawn Messonnier, a well-known holistic DVM and author of one of my well-thumbed books, http://leerburg.com/971.htm (from "The Natural Vet Series").

There is no authoritative source that I have ever read or heard that supports what this vet is saying, on more than one major point of her argument -- from derm manuals to standard vet manuals to holistic handbooks to allergy textbooks.

If someone can point me to a vet college, a derm vet, a vet association, a manual or handbook for DVMs, or any other authoritative source that supports RAST or even ELISA tests for true food allergies in dogs, I would love to see it. I mean this: I really truly want to see it.


OK, I said my piece on the topic (a topic I've been studying for about a decade now), and I also agree with Betty about any vet who calls you in the evening to talk about the problem. Such a dedicated vet may be mistaken about something important, but maybe dedication and concern trump such gaps in knowledge. They probably do.

I am going to find a recipe for treats and make him some meat based treats. BUT, I need a way to fed him his pills, and I started yesterday to use the goat cheese I eat since I am allergic to cow's milk. Not lactose intolerant, but allergic. But I read another article here that says that may not be a good idea. ANy ideas on how to get his supplements in him? if I put them in wet food, he eats some and plays with some. That's a mess, and most is wasted.

What size are the pills? What are they? (I ask this because some gelcaps taste good inside and some capsules do too, so they can be pierced and squeezed or opened and sprinkled over food. Some can be crushed and mixed into goat yogurt or a little pumpkin.)

Some can be slipped into a slot cut out of an all-meat no chemical piece of hot dog.

There's always pilling, of course, but that's a last resort for me.

Also, I have spent a good part of today reading and reading the raw diet info, and the list if suppliers which gave me some good ideas to find food. I am going to take a bit if time to see if I can get a steady supply set up, and if I can, I am going ot try it for a few weeks and see how he does. If he does well, I will buy the freezer and go for it. it sounds too good to pass up. And if he truly does have allergies, then what better way to address it, aside form discontinuing vaccines?

You can actually do it with the regular grocery store(s) and the fridge freezer. I don't have a separate freezer, and I have multiple dogs. (Of course, I also live a couple of blocks from the natural-food store whose butcher counter is my main supplier, and my fridge-freezer is pretty big.) But you can do a trial run with very little investment in food and none in hardware if you can find a source of, say, chicken backs and maybe quarters from un-injected (not "flavor enhanced") birds. The other ingredients besides the RMBs are readily available everywhere (a little muscle meat, a little produce, a little organ meat, fish oil and E, maybe some cheap canned mackerel or sardines a bit later ..... ).

With a dog who has a history like this, I would not begin a diet switch until I had good poops from him. A significant gauge of how quickly to proceed with added ingredients and how to assess the suitability of the bone content is the poop. So I would not do this if the dog was having a bout of pudding.



Now for the giardia. I talked to her about it, telling her the situation with my vet. She said if she treats giardia, she uses 10 days of Flagyl,no more, but not 5 days. She said light colored stools can be an indicator, and I feel like his stools are a little lighter than normal sometimes. ??? That brings me back to the two questions about this: One is with the difficulty getting a good diagnosis, would you not just treat it if you seriously suspect it is the culprit? And two, that still leaves me with the situation I discussed above with the fact that if he does have it, he is highly likely to get it again.


Was the vet's preference treating for just treating for giardia?

Betty, if you see this, would this be what you would do? Or would you want to do the three-sample fecal, or SNAP test, or what?

http://krex.k-state.edu/dspace/handle/2097/2323

 Quote: Julie Sloan

And she likes raw. ....

Also, about the meat-based treats: There are some very good ones sold here:

http://leerburg.com/869-2.htm

http://leerburg.com/bravotreats.htm

http://leerburg.com/1225.htm

http://leerburg.com/1226.htm

http://leerburg.com/1869.htm

Did you particularly want to make your own? I microwave skinless white chicken bits (either crisp or chewy -- depends on microwave time) and keep them in the freezer. I also cook a thin sheet of egg white in a skillet and the cut it into spaghetti-like strands or into strands and then across for small dot-size treats (any size is easy -- just use scissors).