Nice that you both had a good time trying something new.

 Quote: Mara Jessup

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Seriously-FUN. We're going back, and I'm bringing our Pointer. We had a Pom out their today herding sheep I guess! (I missed that run) Also a 13yr old Dal, and allllll sorts of mixed breeds. It was awesome. Wait, did I say that already?
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If you can find a place close by, TAKE YOUR PUP. Amazing, at least at this location in Washington. One of the most knowledgeable dog people I've ever met, and get a read on a dog in MOMENTS. He saw Koe for 5 seconds, and knew he'd need his hard sheep. Just asked his age. Nothing about his training, recall, or control. Awesome. I'm thrilled. Could not have been a better day!

WHY?

I strongly disagree trying this out with breeds beside herding breeds. What are you hoping to accomplish? It's fun to dabble in different sports with your dog, but you've got to remember that herding is quite stressful for the sheep, especially with beginning dogs. I don't like the idea of looking at herding as another fun activity to do with you dogs - not saying that it can't be fun and enjoyable, but I don't think it's fair to put sheep through the stress of being worked by any dog under the sun just because the dogs and owners want to have fun. It's not that much fun for the sheep to be chased by random dogs. It's one thing if you've got an idea that the dog has some innate ability and can progress quickly past the beginning stages. The idea behind developing herding breeds was to control the stock with the least amount of stress. If you want to get out and try something fun with your dog, stick to agility, OB, Rally, etc. If you want to learn the art of stockwork, stick with breeds that have the ability in their genetic makeup

Sorry Kelly, I didn't mean to rain on your parade!! I'm glad you had an enjoyable day and that Koenig has some talent and ability in this area. I'll enjoy hearing about his progress!

This place (Ewetopia) encourages dogs of all breeds to come out and see if they have any skill. All dogs, as prey animals, have some amount of prey drive. (Even the silly little fluffy Pom!) The owner has years of experience with problem dogs, aggressive dogs, and all sorts in between. He is the one controlling the dog when it's in with the sheep, and it's amazing to see how well he can read the dog. I was actually suprized at the low level of stress the sheep went through, throughout the day. (and stock was rotated all day long)


From the website:
We love all dogs! From a Papillon that is zipping after the sheep with his butterfly ears flying back to a lumbering Bernese Mountain Dog to the large numbers of Border Collies, Cattle Dogs, Corgis, Shelties, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, the Belgian breeds, and all the rest, all are welcome as long as the owners follow a few simple safety rules that are posted.

Ewetopia allows all breeds and mixed breeds of dogs at any age to come out and try their natural skill at herding. Pomeranians to Great Danes, 8 week old bearded collies to 12-year old Shetland sheepdogs will be matched with livestock appropriate to the dog. If you want to train your working breed for the sport of herding or your farm dog to help out around the place or your urban pet to have manners and exercise, Ewetopia can help you.

Here's my opinion - just because they do it, doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. Because all sheep -as the unwilling prey- are stressed by it. I mean, lots of people love dog parks, but IMO they're an accident waiting to happen. Dogs are successfully trained with yank and crank methods, but no one here would choose that because they want something better.

When I read the website, I cringed a bit. The way it was worded it sounds like a "bring your dog out for some exercise "herding" sheep". Random breed urban pets do not need to be exercised behind sheep. That's what lure coursing is for!

The reason many breeds may look successful is that the sheep have figured out what needs to be done to keep the dog from bugging them too much.


I guess the question I'm asking is it it really ethical to use living creatures as dog toys just because you can? This type of environment (urban people bringing pet dogs of varying breeds) can quickly lead to the sheep being viewed as objects rather than living creatures and it bothers me.

This is very interesting.

It's fortunate that the folks on this thread are good at stepping back and looking at a big picture without being defensive, because this is such a good question.

I'm wondering how the folks running it protect their flock ... ? I don't know enough about it to understand. Can they choose individual sheep who are experienced as well as completely able to fend for themselves?

Or what? Maybe the dogs are doing less "herding" than running around barking and having a good time and the sheep are knowledgeable enough to act "herded"?

I would love to hear more. I admit that the verbiage made me cringe too, as if the flock was big plaything with little playthings making it up, but I am probably completely wrong.

(Kelly knows that neither Mara nor I would attack her or her dog, and that this is about the activity as a whole; plus, I may be so far off that I'm a laughingstock. )

Like this:

"He is the one controlling the dog when it's in with the sheep, and it's amazing to see how well he can read the dog. I was actually suprized at the low level of stress the sheep went through, throughout the day."

This is what I would really love to hear more about, because it starts to take it out of the image that was making me cringe when I read their site.

I don't know very much about hearding, other than the obvious, but have thought it is someithing that I would like to see if my dogs have the aptitiude for. I just have to travel a distance for the opportunity to work with someone very knowledgable & have been engaged in other pursuits with the dogs.

I don't know, but as Connie stated...I would think that the sheep owners & trainer would know what sheep pen to put varring level dogs in with. I would also assume that they would not want their sheep injured & take all precautions for this. I also would suspect that they have been at it long enough to tell if a dog would be appropriate for the work just with the body language etc of the dog etc. But I may be wrong about that.

Don't think that I would have ever considered herding with am off breed...but some dogs can be quite tallented on odd areas. Look at little Mr. Murphy with his big ole SchH title

It IS interesting Connie! I never thought of it from Mara's perspective, but she has very valid points. Is it ethical to use another animal to exercise (both mentally and physically) our pets, when it may not be a 'sport' they are talented in?

I'll do my best to explain what I saw, and was taught. (Please keep in mind this was my first experience, and I do have a 'herding' breed.)

The guy running the place (owner) has 3 sheep, in a pen in the corner of an arena. The arena is then somewhat round, as the pens for the sheep are triangular. He's got the sheep sorted according to 'hardness'. The 'Hard' sheep are the animals that will allow a dog to get in extremely close quarters before moving away. Basically, they don't care. The set of sheep that is not quite as hard won't let the dog get as close as the 1st group, and so on and so forth. There are some sheep (NOT the ones used for the HCT!) that a dog can work from an entire pasture away. (think over 500') These sheep are considered soft. If you took a dog like Koenig and threw him in with these 'soft' sheep, they'd scatter like bowling pins, and utter chaos would erupt. Koenig was run on the 'hard' sheep, as he's got an extremly high prey drive, with very little fear.

Joe talked a lot about his sheep. I guess to some extent they know to stick close to the stockman while a dog is in the pen. Joe's got a 10'ish PVC pole, and will physically push away a dog with naughty intentions. That said, the sheep are not so overworked and dull that all they do is follow the stockman around. The dog has to work, to try and keep them grouped. This is done with varying degrees of success, depending on the dogs instinct (what we were out to test!) and activity level.

Many of the dogs were just simply running around and barking. At one point that was Koenig. Joe saw that the dog was frustrated, and didn't understand what to do, how to control the sheep. Joe worked Koenig harder. Started giving him commands (wait, around, etc). Once Koenig was asked to think about what Joe was asking, and not simply allowed to run circles barking, he stopped barking, and was actually moving the sheep with some success. It was very interesting to watch. I feel very strongly that many of the dogs out there yesterday would not have had any success if not for Joe. He told me flat out that many (most?) evaluators would have failed Koenig within 5 seconds because he was so rowdy, and excited. All Koenig needed was a few minutes to think, figure things out, settle down, and get to work. Then all the puzzle pieces started falling into place.

Mara- THANK YOU, for bringing an entire different light on this. I really appreciate it- looking at things from a fresh a new angle is alway good.

I am still going to try Sara on sheep (English Pointer). I think it will help her learn to work under distraction VERY well, and this is the major issue we've got with her. I'll try and get a video of Koe up today.

Something else I would throw out is that I know of numerous people who have said that it is just not worth it to them to give lessons to random breeds, even though the money is pretty good. These are people with years of stock working experience and trial wins under their belt.

The one lady in my area that does with with a variety of breeds does it on a one by one basis. There is a larger financial commitment (which I like because it cuts down on the people doing it for kicks) and it's low key environment. The idea of show up and pay your $10 to be able to watch your dog herd sheep throws a lot of red flags for me. And it kind of downplays what really goes into good stockmanship and the raw genetic talent of a good herding dog. Kind of the idea that all it takes is money. Any sort of real world work (which I believe stock work falls under) takes educating yourself and having the right dog for the job.

What I would love is for people to go watch, observe, learn the terms, learn how a well trained dog handles stocks, get a feel for the stock themselves before jumping into it. If you really want to be wowed attend a USBCHA trail or two. It's amazing - the calm control of the dogs both at a distance and close up is incredible.

 Quote: kelly byrd

Joe talked a lot about his sheep. I guess to some extent they know to stick close to the stockman while a dog is in the pen. Joe's got a 10'ish PVC pole, and will physically push away a dog with naughty intentions. That said, the sheep are not so overworked and dull that all they do is follow the stockman around. The dog has to work, to try and keep them grouped. This is done with varying degrees of success, depending on the dogs instinct (what we were out to test!) and activity level.

Any school sheep for new dogs are essentially "knee-knockers" (run right into your knees if the dog is doing something semi-right). The reason they don't just follow the stock man around is that the new dog is sending off mixed signals to them and they're figuring out how to deal with it. As soon as the dogs starts sending signals that they are a bit familiar with (and this is facilitated by the handler) then they get into the familiar grove. Since new dogs are a huge unknown, the handler needs to use stock that know the ropes to set the dog up for success.

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Many of the dogs were just simply running around and barking. At one point that was Koenig. Joe saw that the dog was frustrated, and didn't understand what to do, how to control the sheep. Joe worked Koenig harder. Started giving him commands (wait, around, etc). Once Koenig was asked to think about what Joe was asking, and not simply allowed to run circles barking, he stopped barking, and was actually moving the sheep with some success. It was very interesting to watch. I feel very strongly that many of the dogs out there yesterday would not have had any success if not for Joe. He told me flat out that many (most?) evaluators would have failed Koenig within 5 seconds because he was so rowdy, and excited. All Koenig needed was a few minutes to think, figure things out, settle down, and get to work. Then all the puzzle pieces started falling into place.

High drive/edgy dogs often respond in a similar way. Kipp was like "I don't know what to do so I'll dive in and bite" . He'd feel the pressure from the stock and not know how to handle it so he'd default to dive and bite. He needs a fine line between handler control and self control. When I took him over to Jeanne's place she got him calm and focused before hand, got him into the pen, then used her body pressure to show him what was acceptable and what wasn't. I'd work him and he was so darn fast that it had me huffing and puffing keeping up with him.

Good handlers make it look easy. It's not

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Mara- THANK YOU, for bringing an entire different light on this. I really appreciate it- looking at things from a fresh a new angle is alway good.

Thanks for keeping an open mind when I responded a bit strong to the idea!

Our first run, of 3.
We only got the 1st on video though. There will be more, over time. I'd love to dual title Koenig.