When you use your hands to touch and physically correct a dog, all your teaching him is that touching him is bad. Should your corrections escalate into more aggressive touching, he very well could bite you. Hands are for calming, praise, and affection. Not corrections.

This is why hitting dogs with your hands (or anything for that matter) is a huge mistake. It will not only teach your dog to go after what is causing him distress, it will also damage your relationship. I found the basic obedience DVD here at Leerburg very good in addressing the where, when, why, and how of corrections.

I have really hum'd and ha'd about replying to this, because I feel like a guest in your country as well as the board, and I have huge respect for everyone on here, your advice and support during all the questions and tough times I have gone through in the short time I have been a member has really been appreciated, so please don't think I am being disrespectful, but because I want Cynthia to stick around for that very reason, I just wanted to say this...

My experience of the Boerboel has been unlike any other breed I have owned or taken in as favours for friends for short periods; they are, quite simply, an oddity; intensley loyal and affectionate, protective and demanding, but also stubborn and wilful, hard headed and thick skinned, their pain threshold is ridiculously high, and nothing short of a bullet would break up a fight, either with each other, or the wildlife they were originally bred to fight to protect the family and livestock on the ranches in SA.

When I first met our breeder, (now an invaluable friend) I told her I have never had to raise my voice, let alone my hand to my pointers, a death stare would usually suffice, she said the Boerboel is a very dominant breed and occasionally, the need will arise when they start maturing and the hormones kick in, I would have to be strong, assertive and possibly have to make a strong correction, or be in the position of the weaker leader, that they will take full advantage of, I use the prong and the e-collar when necessary for correction because at the weight and size they are, I have to get their attention straight away, especially when they are pushing their luck and bracing up to other dogs, or getting mouthy with us, we are at the stage now when a sharp 'NO!' stops the buggering about, but getting to that stage takes patience and time, so if the situation has arisen suddenly where I have to react on the spot, a zap on a low stim gets their attention back with me, not the irritating small dog/child who is pushing all their buttons with no owner/parent about, and I have never felt bad about that.

So what I am trying to say is, Cynthia giving her dog a Cesar style 'bite' on occasion, will really not damage her relationship with her boy; It certainly won't hurt him, and because of the really rough way they play with each other, plus their undying loyalty, they take the correction and just move on.

I am in no way advocating summary beatings or rough handling, just want to put it into a wee bit of perspective, the odd jab to the neck which in many ways emulates the action of the prong, i.e. the mothers bite, will not make any difference to the oafish and often beligerent Boerboel.

I submit this opinion most respectfully and with the spirit of the 'other side of the argument' it is intended with, and am sincerely not suggesting that 'hitting' or 'abusing' a dog is EVER acceptable, rather that massive and powerful dogs with pea brains, from time to time need a metaphorical boot up the arse!

Bracing myself for a bollocking now....!

I personally don't have enough information to guess whether corrections for what is described are even fair.

I don't know what kind of training has been done, or what kind of proofing has been done.

I've seen CM work several times, "back in the day." Those jabs are not "neck bites." They are "focus on me" reminders. What I mean is, they are attention getters and not uncomfortable or painful corrections. Maybe there's a fine line, but IMO they are firmly on the side of "Hey! Back with me!"

This isn't really very important here. What IS important is the dog's reaction to them.

I understand what you're saying, Tracey, and I think your input is invaluable, but I want to back up. I think there's a lot to address before anyone with only the information on this thread can even guess at the trigger of the nipping.

I'm hoping that the questions already asked will be answered. No matter what the breed, Chihuahua, Mal, GSD, or Pug, foundation is first.


From page 1:

What kind and how often are your training sessions?

Can you tell us how you proof commands for distraction?

Can you give us an average exercise schedule?

What is the routine for having him come out of his kennel?


PS
I will add something I think is crucial from CM: He is DOG first. Then he is breed. Then he is Simba.



Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/02/2011 04:01 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Thanks for all the advice!! I'm so happy to have everyone's impute on this matter, especially Tracy's cause she has experience owning them. I can see and understand everyone's side to things. I do need to spend more time exercising him and training him. I love the idea of the flirt pole. I'll have to give that a try. I usually use a dominant dog collar to train Simba with and a prong collar. Eventually I'll have enough money to buy him a e-collar. Right now I'm trying to work with him on the PLACE command. Any advice on the best way to teach it?

Simba is a very good dog, but sometimes he can be a little much to handle, like when he is very excited and playful. I try and always be the Alpha and not let him think he can run over me. I know that he respects me as the Alpha because he does listen to me and respect my boundaries. Last night on one of our walks around the neighborhood I got him to walk beside me without me having to hold his leash. If he got too far ahead of me I got his attention by making a sound and he slowed back down and continued walking with me. He also would stop when I stopped, even at a run.

Can you describe using the DD collar, and under what circumstances? Or do you mean that you use it as backup for the prong?

Also,

What kind and how often are your training sessions?

Can you tell us how you proof commands for distraction?

Can you give us an average exercise schedule?

What is the routine for having him come out of his kennel?



eta

Kudos for posting and asking and learning!



Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/02/2011 04:06 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Completely agree with your re dog/breed/name; I have read 'Cesars Way' so much the book is falling apart, the guy is definitely part dog!

Of course you are right, the collective 'we' don't have all the information because it is usually the here and now questions we are given, I just really wanted to offer my experiences as an insight for how tricky and obtuse the breed is, plus I wanted Cynthia to stick around, which I am delighted to see she has!

Good on you Cynthia for not getting the hump and heading for the hills! the Leerburg folks are passionate about dogs and truly want what is best for them, and hopefully you will get the answers you need, I am with you on how bloody difficult the Boerboel young male can be, keep the faith, they are so worth it!

I just really wanted to offer my experiences as an insight for how tricky and obtuse the breed is, plus I wanted Cynthia to stick around, which I am delighted to see she has!

ME TOO!

I usually use the dominant dog collar by quickly pulling it or tightening it and putting pressure on Simba's neck and then quickly releasing the pressure. I use it only when he is being unruly and not listening to me and getting more excited. I use the prong collar mainly when walking him.

I train Simba with just the basic sit, stay, and down command. I'm now working on teaching him a solid place command so I can have him out with me and my fiance without pestering us or are other dog, Archer, while we watch TV and relax. I don't have a training schedule, just whenever I feel like it or I have time. I have to be honest, I don't really like training him new tricks or commands just cause I don't have a lot of experience training dogs and I worry about not doing it right or confusing Simba as to what I want from him. I also worry I won't correct him right when he does the opposite of what I am training or if he doesn't want to listen. I feel like I need training just to train him. I don't want to confuse him or make him get frustrated.

I don't know what you mean by proofing commands for distaction. I try and train him in places where there aren't any distractions. If there is distraction I try and get his attention back on me by using the bite correction or stepping into his space and making him back up until he looks at me.

I try and exercise him every night around the neighborhood for 10 to 20 minutes. I know I need to exercise him for 45 minutes a day and I am working towards that. When I first started walking him he was scared to death of ppl and dogs in their yards and loud noises. So I tried to keep it short and sweet each time so we could both get used to it and so it was more enjoyable for us. I also tried staying on the same path throughout the neighborhood so it could be more predictable and a comfort for him. Now I'm beginning to make our walking route larger and longer by adding a new route one at a time. I am also starting to bike with him in our neighborhood. This is very helpful to drain his energy and make it more interesting.

I have class throughout the week and I don't get off until 3 or 4. I take him out of his kennel right after I get home and spend some time with him. When I let him out I have him wait for 5 seconds and give me eye contact and then I give him a release command to come out. Then I take him directly outside to use the bathroom and to play tug of war.

"I train Simba with just the basic sit, stay, and down command. I'm now working on teaching him a solid place command so I can have him out with me and my fiance without pestering us or are other dog, "

How, was more my question. What is your training method? Are you marker training? For example, how did you teach "sit"?


"I don't know what you mean by proofing commands for distaction. I try and train him in places where there aren't any distractions. If there is distraction I try and get his attention back on me by using the bite correction or stepping into his space and making him back up until he looks at me. "

To make it as brief as I can: a command is not really taught until it's proofed for distraction and venue. So yes, as you say, the command is introduced in a distraction-free zone. When there is reliable compliance there, I first proof for venue by moving to another distraction-free zone. Say we started in the living room. I would then move to the kitchen, to the driveway, to the back porch, etc. This is so the dog hasn't just learned that "sit" means "sit when the command is given in the living room."

Then I proof for distraction, gradually. If we have started in an unpopulated quiet place, and we now have reliable compliance, I might add someone watching from a doorway. Then I might add cars going by, but at a distance. Then we might reduce that distance. Then maybe a friend with a dog will walk by, but at a distance that allows my dog to retain focus on me and not re-focus on the other dog. (These are just examples of gradual proofing for distraction.) As you can see, I need the dog's focus to be and stay on me.

My personal strong (very strong) recommendation would be to use marker training. (Marker training is a term that encompasses both clickers and verbal markers.) That's why I asked about training method. And focus on me would be a top priority, starting in a distraction-free environment.


Do you know about marker training?

This sounds good, and maybe like you do have some familiarity with it:
"When I let him out I have him wait for 5 seconds and give me eye contact and then I give him a release command to come out. Then I take him directly outside to use the bathroom and to play tug of war." Even with this routine, and a calm command to come out, does the dog become over-excited?

Your detailed answers are good. There has been an important step missed between introducing a command and correcting for non-compliance. If you tell us what your training method is, we can help much better with proofing. And we can definitely help with marker training!

MANY people here are extremely experienced with marker work (including engagement/focus). You probably noticed that LB just changed to a new webboard Monday, so there are folks working out their passwords, etc. But I hope you will hang in there. I think you will get a ton of help here.

Training doesn't have to mean necessarily training something new or a trick.

Even just over the basics he already knows works his mind, which can help with getting him "mentally" tired...lol

If he only knows sit or down right now just work on those.
Training does not always have to involve any type of correction, and i understand your hesitation to train something new and worry about not giving a proper correction.
That's where Marker Training (as Connie mentioned) comes in.
There are no corrections and it's all positive.
Long story short....dog only gets rewarded when he does what you are asking.
No worries about not correcting at the right time and screwing it up.
(well you did still have to reward the dog correctly and at the right time, there is timing involved, but it's a great way to teach a dog commands)

Edited by Wendy Lefebvre (11/03/2011 08:17 AM)
Edit reason: wanted to make a point!