Dismissing this as a myth........I don't know. The studies you talk about I have never seen or heard of. If you have a link or something I would like to see it if that is possiabable.
As far as it not causing any damage, for anyone that has not done this, take an e-collar put it at 4 or 5 on the older tri-tronics, and give yourself a knick or two, and tell me what your muscles feel like, and what the control of your body movements are. Do this ten times for 10 minutes and tell me what you feel like. Of course diffrent people will respond diffrentley, and so will dogs. The old German collars were known for really getting right to the nervous system of the dog. I am not talking about light level stimulation, but higher levels. Again maybe there is no effect at all on the dog, but I think that it is possiable.
To think that dog food was never studied, that is not true. The results were just never really published. I find it hard to believe that in a Multi-billion dollar industry with the type of crap that goes into certain dog foods over the last thirty years, no establishment has ever done a study???????
As far as the e-collar, again there MAY be nothing to it, but however, with over 2o dogs in two diffrent areas having been trained with the e-collar and they all have spine conditions, it is strange and does become a little suspect, and not foklore.
As far as you getting shocked, this is done by a proffesional, and for a medical reason. I have also heard of studies that there is some stress on the nervous system when electric shock treatment is adminstered over an extended period of time.

Luck of the draw. There are plenty of people that train with prongs and their dogs still get neck and spine problems. Lots and lots. . .

Then I bet there are plenty of people that train with e-collars that have healthy dogs without spine/neck problems. The genetics of the dogs, the hard work we put them through, and the stupid luck of random injuries. . .

I think these are the big factors. E-collars could be the straw that. . well you know. . ., but I doubt it.

Is this going to turn into a Prong collar is safer than the e-collar discussion Mike? Like the sharp collar is better than the e-collar because of the possibility of spine damage?

Just a question manno. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Michael Taylor wrote: Dismissing this as a myth........I don't know. The studies you talk about I have never seen or heard of. If you have a link or something I would like to see it if that is possiabable.

LC: This is called “proving a negative” and can’t be done. It’s the same sort of statement as saying. “Prove that God doesn’t exist.” That can’t be done either. Go to the University of Auburn website (do your own search) and look for any studies that show any damage to dogs from Ecollars.

Michael Taylor wrote: As far as it not causing any damage, for anyone that has not done this, take an e-collar put it at 4 or 5 on the older tri-tronics, and give yourself a knick or two, and tell me what your muscles feel like, and what the control of your body movements are.

LC: Are you now trying to say that sore muscles are a link to spinal damage? If so the medical field would just be dying to know of this. Ever lift weights and put on some size doing it? I guarantee that for professional body builders sore muscles are a constant. All of the studies that I’ve read say that bones get stronger from weightlifting, which almost universally leads to sore muscles.

Michael Taylor wrote: The old German collars were known for really getting right to the nervous system of the dog.

LC: I don’t even know what it means to “get right to the nervous system of the dog.” Can you elaborate?

Michael Taylor wrote: I am not talking about light level stimulation, but higher levels. Again maybe there is no effect at all on the dog, but I think that it is possiable.

LC: When someone finds some sort of link then I’ll agree. Until then this is just speculation. And it’s based on specious numbers. “over 20 dogs in two different areas" is nothing. Thousands of retrievers are worked their entire life on high levels of stimulation. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pets are worked on high levels of stimulation. But let’s looks at those 20 dogs you mention. What kinds of work were they doing? Any sport biting? That’s famous for causing spinal injuries. Any agility? Again, famous for causing spinal injuries. Have you looked at their genetics? Have their predecessors have any spinal problems?

Michael Taylor wrote: As far as you getting shocked, this is done by a proffesional, and for a medical reason.

LC: Does it make some difference that a professional is putting the contacts on my shoulder? If there was a link between Estim and spinal damage it would be there, no matter who put the contacts on. And it doesn’t make any difference the reason it’s being done.

Michael Taylor wrote: I have also heard of studies that there is some stress on the nervous system when electric shock treatment is adminstered over an extended period of time.

LC: What does “stress on the nervous system” mean? Are these spinal injuries you’re talking about or are they spinal CORD injuries? And since you’re saying that these studies exist, please provide the links.

Lou, I know that you are pro e-collar. I will try to answer your questions as I remeber them.
For one I do not think that God and e-collars co-exist, I also think that you may have opened a can of worms, as some believe that they can prove it.LOL.
I stated I have heard of the affects of the damage that electric shocks causes to humans. Never did I sight any one study. I heard this over conversation with people.
As far as the hunting dogs, I too would like to know what they have noticed, if anything.
I am not ignorant to the fact that dogs that compete or train for biting sports, or agility are prone to spine injuries.
As far as soreness of the muslces; give me a break. I did not imply that sore muscles were related to spine trouble.
You go and shock yourself a repeated number of times over years and tell me that there is no way this could cause injury, without any doubt. I would like to know how you could say that. Again I DON'T KNOW if they cause any damage.
You wrote that there were studies that were e-collar specific, that were looking for short and long-term damage. I was hoping that you could point me to a specific study, since you quailfied your answeer with that statement.
I am not a Medical Proffesional, but in medicine there is a diffrence between treating a human and training a dog. I am not sure you understand that after reading your post.
A friend and myself noticed the topic, I took it to the board and wanted to know what others thought. I agree that 20 dogs is not enough to make a conclusive study, but this is why I posted this. I suspected that this would not go over with trainers that are e-collar pro's. Am I saying I am going to un-plug my collar and never use it again, I think not, but just making an observation. I once questioned how dog food was so cheap, when you add up the cost to make it if they were using good meat and quality grains, and make a profit, but hey, I am just a simple dog trainer.

This thread just fell out of the smart tree. Where does that leave it??

LOL!!

Hey giggles, you never did answer my question. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

when does coincidence become correlation?

 Quote:

Originally posted by az trooper:
when does coincidence become correlation?

When critical thinking goes for a holiday.

Dei.

"The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Stephen Budiansky

As a professional researcher, I can say that correlation doesn't mean jack-sh--t. There is a correlation between palm trees and people wearing shorts... do the palm trees CAUSE people to wear shorts? NO.

Spine problems have become increasingly common in high drive working dogs recently. Guess what... a lot of high drive dogs are trained with e-collars, and prongs... maybe its the leather in those expensive leashes???

VanCamp... I agree with your assessment regarding this thread.