David,

Good questions all...

Staying with the bone example of the original post, my young male tried to get into the habit of collecting all of the bones, that are round about to chew, and present an attitude to any of the older dogs who approached him. My solution was to simply do my 'hey' voice, collect the bones, and end the situation. After a few 'heys' and loss of bone he seemed to get it that it was ok to have one bone but not ok to have multiple bones, and it was absolutely not ok to give the other dogs the attitude.

I don't allow toy hoarding and I don't allow nose to nose attitude.

It would be foolish of me to expect that dogs get along 100 per cent of the time. But often I see a situation brewing and, aware of my presence, the dogs will look at me and get on about their business. No command, sound, gesture. Just a look.

Each of the four dogs have unique personalities. Dominant, submissive, anxious, strong. And those personalities change day to day, situation to situation.

I'm working through the word "avoidance." I guess so but I want all the dogs to avoid in that context. And yes, it does create an atmosphere of self-defusing. The alpha will get cranky with this behavior, so...

Initially it may be the A v. B scenario but over time it becomes A and B both are conditioned. And over the years, the core pack members create a atmospheric that seems to quickly condition new members whether new pack member or foster.

There are always consequences to behavior. In my world my challenge is to try to maintain a balance and fairness that reaches all dogs and each dog evenly. I try hard to maintain an atmosphere in which no dog feels, if that is the right word, that he or she has to seek a leadership position or is relegated to a follower position.

Each dog is trained more or less the same way, using the same commands, using the same hand signals, getting the same rewards, etc. The result, often, is that a command such as 'enough' addresses all of the dogs behaviors at the same time, or at least addresses some of the dogs' behaviors and reminds the others.

An old story... I had a foster dog arrive and about the third day he was here I was sitting at my desk when Max came into the room, sat and looked into the kitchen. In a moment, Freya did the same. Then Brio. Then Kai. I thought it odd, so I got up and looked into the kitchen to see the foster dog counter surfing. I bellowed 'HEY' and he got down and came to me in submission. I looked at him. the other dogs looked at him, and that was that. No more counter surfing. Lucky. Funny. Interesting.

I don't tolerate behavior from one dog that I wouldn't tolerate in the others. That wouldn't be fair.

On a tangent. Every day starts with the morning ritual. They go out for a constitutional. I get the dog's food. Down the dogs, though they go down automatically, put the bowls of food down, and wait until the spirit moves me to release the dogs to eat either by name or all with OK. Put another way, every morning the dogs begin their day paying attention to me. And the day is laced with mini reminder sessions of our respective roles.

I like to train the individual dog in the presence of the group. Kinda like monkey see monkey do with distractions. I want them always to hear me and respond to me as individuals and a group. I like lots of praise. I'm interested in a pet that has personality and character, and can be trusted as much as you can trust any dog.

I love the individual personalities of the dogs and try not to dampen any, and they seem none the worse for my efforts. They certainly aren't shrinking violets.

I guess it has to do with me not picking a dog if two have an issue. I don't correct one and praise the other. I try hard not to show favoritism, which is not to say that I don't pet and pamper the dogs individually. I address the instance or situation and not the dogs, mostly. That sounds strange but it is how I do stuff. Of course there are individual corrections but if two dogs have a problem I address the problem as if both dogs should know better.

I guess it is the result of having a continuing pack where dogs come and go over time, and times change but basic atmospherics remain the same. And it seems to me that dogs learn from other dogs, so if the dogs are trained it isn't just me emphasizing behavior.

Sorry for the rambling. And I don't think I answered your questions.

Just a little update. We've had them both together several times today in the living room with no toys, bones or anything else that one of them could claim. Everything's gone fine. I'm trying to keep her routine the same as much as possible. It is difficult to get 7 and 10 year old boys to understand that they have to give the adult dog as much play time as the puppy. The pup is new and exciting. I don't think that me playing with her is the same because they are the ones that have mostly played with her in the past so I think they have to keep that up.

Got an ex pen this morning and that's working out well. He whined in that a little bit but quickly settled in. Hasn't played much in it yet, but took a good long nap in it.

The ex pen is working well. The lab has free reign of the house and the pup can play with his toys in there and neither seem to care about the other much. The lab will go over and give a little sniff here or there, but no intimidation type stuff so far.

By the way, maybe I should start a new thread for this, but I'll try anyway. How do you get the dog to want to go into the crate or ex pen. I mean I get that you use treats and all that, but he had to go in the crate last night when we only had him for a few hours and he's not used to the situation. Therefore there's no time to acclimate him to that in a motivational way. So he does get used to it surprisingly quickly, but doesn't initially want to go into it. So how do you transition him into wanting to go in? I hope that makes sense.

Do you toss in a little treat first? (Not a permanent procedure .... just a simple beginning one.)

Also, with a new dog of any age, I make sure there's no negative stuff around the crate. With a dog learning about the crate, I don't close the crate and immediately leave the room; I don't always close the door; I don't use the crate for punishment, I make the length of time in the crate very random (that is, it might be thirty seconds the first time, and then five minutes, and then thirty seconds again, and so on). I make sure I don't use the crate only to end playtime, or as a prelude to me leaving the house, etc.

All JMO!

But there's lots of good stuff around crate-training, like where (relative to family presence) to locate it, how to make it as den-like (or not) as the individual dog responds best to, and much more, so your idea of a separate thread is a good one.


PS
In lots of ways, the ex-pen is different. For example, I don't use it as a safe place to leave the dog and go away. I treat it more like tethering the dog to my belt (a very good thing, IMO; a new dog spends a lot of time tethered to me) but with more freedom of movement for the dog.



ETA (more about ex-pens):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWQLfq7tpVE&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X-7e0ilBZc



Edited by Connie Sutherland (04/22/2012 04:12 PM)
Edit reason: ETA

I get how to vary the time that I put him in the crate at first and to use treats. What I'm saying is, the first day (yesterday) there's so much going on with new puppy, existing dog, 2 kids etc, etc. There's not much time to work on that. So I haven't found a treat that he really likes much yet and haven't had a ton of time to work on time in the crate, but he still has to go in there some, particularly at night. Now, he did adjust to the crate much better than I expected. Within half an hour last night, he settled down and went to sleep at about 9. I got him up at 1:00 a.m. to go out. He peed. Put him back, he slept until 6:30 and still didn't whine. I got him out and started the day. He also adjusted really quickly to the ex pen. All I'm trying to figure out is, even though he adjusts quickly, it's not a place that he really wants to go. So will the treats(once I find something he really likes) and varying the timing eventually get him to like going into the crate or ex pen. Not just a place he has to go.

I should say that between 1:00 and 6:30 he did give a few whimpers here and there, I had the crate set up on some chairs right next to me. When he would start to whine, I would give a few light sh sh sh sounds and he'd settle back in and go back to sleep.

"So will the treats(once I find something he really likes) and varying the timing eventually get him to like going into the crate or ex pen. Not just a place he has to go."

I'd make sure the crate is a good thing for the new dog. I'd be sure to have a couple of special chew-items that are for the crate only, and that he's not crated for too long (by having lots of alternate stuff, like the ex-pen, tethering to me {very big for me}, playtime, etc.), that the crate is in a good spot, etc. Then, my answer is "yes."

But the puppy experts will see this and have better answers.

 Quote: Kory Fox

I should say that between 1:00 and 6:30 he did give a few whimpers here and there, I had the crate set up on some chairs right next to me. When he would start to whine, I would give a few light sh sh sh sounds and he'd settle back in and go back to sleep.

I'm not clear on this. The crate is up off the floor? Maybe I'm not picturing it accurately. It sounds not "secure and den-like," the way I'm picturing it.

Other questions about that aside, how would he get in?

I start with always making the crate a happy place and I don't really worry about fading out a treat or anything. It kind of happens naturally in my house because I often forget them.

I start with pups and use my happy, silly, I'm high as a kite, voice and say lets go the crate!

When I have a litter I even have little crate song and will throw in a few dance steps on the way to the crate. When I do it right it's hysterical watching a litter of puppies pushing each other out of the way running for a crate..... Of course they may be trying to run from the crazy singing, dancing lady, but hey! I'm out numbered, whatever works.

If I understand your post properly and you are elevating the crate I applaud your ingenuity and think I can see the reasoning behind it.

My own experience is that a crate next to my desk or my bed where I can lean over and put a couple of fingers in their to calm them works well.

And it gives you the additional benefit of the pup always knowing that the crate is available to them. I have my adult dogs that figure the crate is there place and I often find them laying in there door open.

"And it gives you the additional benefit of the pup always knowing that the crate is available to them. I have my adult dogs that figure the crate is there place and I often find them laying in there door open. "

So you mean on the floor, where the pup can always go in .... am I following?

Yes, my experience with the crate has been that, too. A good place where the dog will actually even go on his own for a retreat or a nap, once the crate has come to mean his den, his sanctuary.

I think I have a hard time explaining myself. To make it simple, there just hasn't been enough time to make it a happy place because I haven't been able to find a treat that he cares much about. I've tried 5 different treats. 4 commercially made ones and bits of hot dog and he just isn't very interested. Yet, he has to sleep there so I can't avoid putting him in there until I can make it a happy place.

As far as putting the crate on the chairs, I made sure it was very stable and it's not like he's bouncing around in there. He just whines for a minute or two (the first time was about 1/2 an hour off and on) and then settles down. I just put him in there and then picked the crate up. It's a very small plastic crate. I'm going to switch him to a large metal crate with a divider at some point, but I already had the small plastic one to use for now. So, no he can't go in there on his own for that, but even when it's on the floor there's no way he's going in there on his own right now. So I don't get how you have enough time to make it a happy place before he has to go in there for the first time.