Lou, your new web page looks great.

Have you used the e collar to deal with the issue of going ballistic at other dogs while the dog is crated in the car?

I have the specific issue and I know it has a fear element as last summer a bloodhound attacked my dog ( pulled down handler and drug her over ) while my dog was exiting my car.

While many don't care about the barking. I can assure you that the stress and energy expanded impacts confindence and performance during searching.

Right now we are having some success with desensitization techniques and minimizing visual contact with other dogs, but the reality is you cannot avoid that 100%. The challenge is I cannot put the dog on obedience for hours on end and she needs to be calm and rested in the crate.

On lead we do have some stress when another dog gets real close (within contact zone) but it is minor and we are currently desensitizing with that as well using some techniques recommended by Jeff Finlay (who indicated in his opinion this was very low level and solvable).

Your e-technique is still in the back of my mind as another tool in the box, but I want to give desensitization a chance as it is small and not overt aggression. I think I would want one on one at a semiar before I tried using the e collar for dog aggression.

On the side, two of my team members who have attended your seminars are going to work with me on using the ecollar to train the dog to wait when she gets to a paved road.

well im here to learn but ,i did fit my collar wright surely the thing is i gotta find a person willing to let me use their dog for the exercise
....any one live here in the springs lol.my dog is a little intimadating.I went through a 4 wk in house sit happens training program but they only went through the basics..like obedience.

Paul, I think it would be wise to go to one of Lou's seminars or find some experienced people to work with for this issue. It is so easy to screw up dog wtih bad timing for this issue due to reasons already discussed, and your initial attempts have already complicated the problem.

Crittering is a bit easier as I don't really care if I screw with the head of a cat or a rooster or a goat but this technique requires another dog and most sensible people are not as willing to subject their dog to intimidation by your dog which is always the problem when dealing with dog aggression....it it is set up carefully by someone who knows what they doing, then the other dog won't be *damaged* and you also want to take care in the selection of that other dog.

im gona call Dave from sit happens up in Denver who is one of Hassen's students ...i will keep you posted.

Nancy I handle barking in the car by teaching a bark on command and then a quiet command. When the dog starts barking I give the quiet command and then enforce it with the Ecollar. It also helps to teach the down and enforce that with the Ecollar as well.

Paul I now understand why you're having problems. My methods aren't compatible with those of the trainer you've worked with. I'd suggest you stick with them as long as you're satisfied. But if you're not and you decide to make the switch, you can't mix the two.

Well Lou i think some things are cookie cutter and i have been learning much on my own through here...such as using the collar to reinforce a behavior much against what i was taught.I do apply your stuff to my dogs.Im gonna make this short today cause the pain meds kicked in...long time bodybuilder knee pain lol.Hassen's methods are good but not made for some dogs like mine who has 200 yrs. of genetics behind him to be dog aggressive....i wouldnt fight my dog i am a animal lover but i have been told by ones who do that he is a one out a hundred as far as his ganeness and i love him but that would be one thing i would change about him.he will chase down a dog on site never mind start with one for touching or looking at him the wrong way...take care.

What I did with my dog was to work with a trainer one-on-one for about 3-4 weeks to really get her up to speed on all her basic obedience, mainly focusing on heel because she was fine with all her other commands. We did all of this training with the prong collar, which is what I've always used on her, but she wore the ecollar all the time as well (as she does now). The only time it goes off is at night, when I plug it in to charge. This way, she never becomes collar smart. Putting on the ecollar means nothing to her; it's a daily routine, just like her meals.

Once she had a solid heel down pat, we started going to the dog park. We started out working her in obedience 10 yards or so away from the fenced, off-leash area where dogs were running around playing, etc. You may have to start out further away with your dog if he’s extremely sensitive to the presence of other dogs.

While there, we worked her through all her commands, including downs and sits while heeling, but focused mainly on keeping her focused on us rather than focusing on those other dogs. She did well at 10 yards, so we moved a little closer. Eventually, after a week or so (my dog wasn’t extremely dog aggressive, just dominant), we were able to heel her up and down the fenceline, both right next to the fence and with us between her and the fence. At this time, we periodically would allow her to stop and sniff the dogs inside the fence or whatever. We encouraged good behavior by using a clicker. For example, she was allowed to look at the other dogs, sniff the other dogs, try to elicit play from the other dogs in a non-aggressive manner, or even just sniff around outside the fence (she was NOT allowed to use the bathroom). Every time she showed interest in the other dogs without showing aggression, she got rapid-fire clicks and treats. Sometimes she’d take the treats, sometimes not, but she knew what the clicker meant. If, at any time, she started to show any sort of inappropriate aggressive behavior – in her case it was hackling, then lifting a lip, then growling, then barking and lunging if we didn’t correct her before then – we verbally corrected her with a low “NO” and she got a level 15 or 20 on a scale of 1-10 with the prong collar. Not being used to this severe a correction, the first two times caused her to yelp, hit the ground on her belly, and refuse to look at the other dogs or even move for a few minutes. Immediately after the correction, we became happy again, praising her and clicking and offering treats when she started to show interest in the other dogs again. She didn’t understand why she had been corrected the first time, so, inevitably, she hackled and growled again a few minutes later. Again, she got a verbal correction followed by a prong collar correction which elicited the same response from her as before. BUT, this time, she bounced back quicker than the first, which said she was starting to understand that it wasn’t the other dogs causing the correction, but her behavior. The third correction came after a longer period of time than the second, and she immediately stopped all aggressive behaviors during that training session after the third correction.

At the second session, we used the ecollar for corrections, adjusted to the appropriate level of stim for the situation (in her case, a level 40 on the Dogtra 200NCP). This was partly because of onlookers who would see us correcting her with the much-harder-than-usual correction with the prong collar and think we were abusing her or whatever, and partly because we wanted her to get used to receiving the correction from the ecollar in the event that she was ever off-leash and needed a correction. To begin with, we used the continuous button, held down for a second or two until she stopped the behavior. When we saw that she immediately stopped, we began using the nick button. The number of corrections began to decrease as she figured out what behaviors were causing the corrections. She no longer associated the correction as coming from the other dog, as she had before we started. After a correction, she no longer yelped and hit the ground; she simply took the correction and stopped the inappropriate behavior, and began showing appropriate behaviors again, including wagging her tail and trying to play with the dogs in the fence. We still used the clicker and praise and treats 95% of the time.

Eventually, after about 8 weeks of dog park training, and two more in-home sessions in which a stray dog happened along during training and Gypsy completely ignored him and continued doing her obedience until she was released and allowed to interact with the stray (he was trotting along beside her while she was heeling, sniffing her butt, and just pretty much being right up in her face), the trainer felt that she could safely be put inside the fence to interact with the dogs in there. When I started training, I wasn’t concerned with letting her run loose with other dogs; I just wanted to be able to take her for walks and stuff and not have to worry about her jumping on some off-leash dog or on a leashed dog as we passed. However, now, she can be trusted 100% even inside the dog park with dozens of other dogs. I haven’t taken her down there since training ended, but knowing that I can control her now, when I didn’t feel that I could before makes taking her out a whole lot less stressful on both of us.

You spent three to four weeks working on basic OB, mainly heeling, and then another eight weeks working at the dog park. That's a total of 11 to 12 weeks. You're to be commended for all that hard work. I sure wouldn't do it.

Once I've taught the Recall, proofed it with the hierarchy of toys and then converted it to loose leash walking with the dog on my left side, I go right to the fence at the dog park. In total this takes (usually) less than a week, working every day for 20-45 minutes. This is with a dog that doesn't have aggression issues with other dogs. If he does, than I'll work the "Dog to Dog Aggression" protocol at the same time I'm doing the other work so the time frame stays the same but you can add 15 minutes/day to the work.

I'd be careful about rewarding a dog for "not showing aggression" unless you're VERY good at reading a dog's body language. If not then the dog, who is sitting quietly, could be thinking "If that dog takes one more step towards me I'll KILL HIM!" If you reward that thought, even once, you may find that it's very difficult to stop the aggression.

You mention that you used huge corrections with a prong collar, "a level 15 or 20 on a scale of 1-10" and I've never felt a need to do anything of that sort. Later on you describe going to a 40 on the Dogtra 200 scale and I usually work at a 20-25; although the last three police service dogs I worked were at an 8-12.

I've found that if you teach first the recall and then the sit with the Ecollar, the dog learns that it's his behavior that makes the stim start and stop. With a very few dogs, to make sure that they understand this, it may take teaching a third behavior with the tool. Those people who use the Ecollar only to polish a command that's been taught with conventional tools are missing the full potential of the tool. Most of those folks use it only as a novel way to cause pain at a distance; an invisible leash, if you will; and that's very limiting.

To just push a button and hope the dog makes the right association takes luck. If the dog makes the wrong association now you have to repair the wrong association and then make the proper one.

Using my system if a dog "yelps and hits the ground" you're too high on the stim level. A very resilient dog will rebound from this with few problems but that's not all dogs.

You're absolutely right - it was a 12-week program, and it was expensive and was definately some work! But it was very much worth it.
The rewarding wasn't for just simply not showing aggressive behavior; it was for showing positive interest in the other dogs. She didn't get rewarded for sniffing around outside the fence, or for looking at a squirrel across the way, or whatever. She got rewarded for a tail wag, play bow, or interested sniff or step towards the dogs in the fence. Having dealt with her dog aggression for many months prior to starting work with the trainer, I was very familiar with her body language when it came to other dogs. At first, we didn't correct her just for hackling, because at that point, it was almost an involuntary thing for her; she'd see a dog, and the front and rear hackles would immediately go up, followed by the tail and head. Then came the stiff-legged posturing, and then if the dog got too close, a lunge or attempt to mount the other dog's shoulders. During the dog park training, we only corrected her if she lifted her lip, growled, barked, or lunged at the dogs in the fence. The reason we had to use such a severe correction was because she did not respond to anything less. Any other time, she requires a fairly soft correction with the prong, but she got so aroused by other dogs that anything less than a level 15 or so only made her behavior worse by just serving as an agitator. Her normal level with the ecollar is around 27-30 (she's a pit/chow), so using level 40 for her dog aggression wasn't really that much of a step up for her, but it was enough to get her attention. She never yelped with the ecollar, and she only yelped twice with the prong - the first two times. I think it was more of being startled and confused than being hurt, because she'd never experienced a correction that strong from me before.

 Quote:

I've found that if you teach first the recall and then the sit with the Ecollar, the dog learns that it's his behavior that makes the stim start and stop. With a very few dogs, to make sure that they understand this, it may take teaching a third behavior with the tool. Those people who use the Ecollar only to polish a command that's been taught with conventional tools are missing the full potential of the tool. Most of those folks use it only as a novel way to cause pain at a distance; an invisible leash, if you will; and that's very limiting.

See, the thing is, she already knew all the basic commands, with the exception of heel. Are you saying I should have tried to use the ecollar to re-teach her those commands before using it for the dog aggression? I also use it to reinforce the imaginary invisible fence that we have around our yard - though since we moved in in November of last year, I've only had to use it for that purpose once, and it was only because she wasn't paying attention to where she was in relation to the flag. lol We had a real invisible fence at our last house, so she was already trained to know that the flags meant the boundary. I figured why pay to have another system put in when I can just stick up the flags at the new place and use the ecollar (which she wears all the time anyway) to reinforce that boundary if I need to? We're going to put a privacy fence across the back and some kind of pretty fence across the front sometime soon anyway (there's already a half fence in the back and on the two sides - one of those wire livestock fences), so there's another reason not to install a real invisible fence.


The point of my post was just to offer a little bit different way of handling the same problem. In my case, I didn't have anyone that could help me out because Gypsy only behaved badly around strange dogs. All of the people I knew that have dogs had already met Gypsy, so she was not badly behaved towards them. The only person whose dog could have helped out, wouldn't have taken the time to help me, so going the route I went was my only option, and it did work. That's all.

Oh, I referred someone on an MSN German Shepherd board to your website because she is thinking of using an ecollar on her dog. If she's gonna do it, I at least want her to have your info at hand, even though I don't think in her case an ecollar is what she needs. I think she just needs to flat out get her dog trained is all.

Kristen wrote: See, the thing is, she already knew all the basic commands, with the exception of heel.

LC: She didn't know them with the Ecollar. If you think of it as a "new language" you'll understand what I mean. The sensation of a stim is completely foreign to a dog, except those who have wandered into a charged fence.

Kristen wrote: Are you saying I should have tried to use the ecollar to re-teach her those commands before using it for the dog aggression?

LC: Yes, to get maximum effect. If all you do is polish known behaviors with an Ecollar the dog doesn't learn that it's his behavior that makes the stim start and stop. By using the continuous mode to teach new behaviors the stim starts with the command and shuts off when the behavior is complete. This is very clear communication. When the stim starts the dog is "wrong" and when it stops, he's "right." When the dog gets this it's extended to other uses of the tool. If all you've done is to use it as an invisible leash, the dog doesn't learn this.

LC: If you "retrain" a dog with an Ecollar who already knows the movements you're talking about one-day-per-movement. It's not a large investment of time, but the benefits allow you to use the tool for other work with very clear communication to the dog. Most dogs understand the concept after learning two commands, the recall and the sit. Some take one more.

LC: If all you're doing is crittering the dog then it's not necessary to train with an Ecollar first because the training uses the continuous mode to tell the dog when he's "wrong" and stop when he's "right."

Kristen wrote: Oh, I referred someone on an MSN German Shepherd board to your website because she is thinking of using an ecollar on her dog. If she's gonna do it, I at least want her to have your info at hand, even though I don't think in her case an ecollar is what she needs. I think she just needs to flat out get her dog trained is all.

LC: Thanks for the reference but I'm confused by your last comment. Using an Ecollar to train is no different than using any other tool except that it's easier on the dog, the handler and is faster than other tools. "Flat out" trained can be done with an Ecollar just as it can with any other tool.