"I do announce myself when I walk by very close to her where about she is sleeping by calling her name...it happened twice that she was just laying there with her eyes opened and I bent to just drag my fingers on her head as I said, "good girl" in a soothing voice and she growled."


Bending over her and touching her head was a very dominant position from you. As per Steve, you don't want to force any of these issues.
In addition to obedience I think you should spend more time with the dog and make obedience a fun game instead of trying to physically make the dog do something.
It sounds like your getting a handle on it.

I looked back .... did I miss this? ..... How long have you had the dog? I saw "time is probably what she needs to figure out her position in the pack" but not how long you have had her.


"Bending over her and touching her head was a very dominant position from you."

Another ditto to this (which both Steve and Bob said). And this too caused me to ask myself how long you have had her. (Although this is not a move I would make with ANY dog whose temperament I had misgivings about, or who was new to my home, or who was reactive,
or, or, or ...... in other words, this is a move only for a dog you know well and who knows you well.) JMO!



Also, the recall that started out good and then soured ..... can you give us details of how you taught the recall?


"n addition to obedience I think you should spend more time with the dog and make obedience a fun game instead of trying to physically make the dog do something. "

+1

Firstly thank you everybody for your input.

Regarding the comment about the breeder: I did call the breeder about it as soon as it started, she did gave me some suggestions and it helped with the couch nipping issue, that is over with. And she gave me tips to deal with her and one was to be aloof with this very independent breed. She also offered to take her back (without an imediate refund that is) I chose to not giving up and try some more. I do love Ziva she can be very sweet and funny. BTW I did months of research before getting this dog. I have seen Kuvasz for the first time in 1985 while looking for a dog and had choosen, back then to get our 3rd Doberman Pincher which I new more about....So this was to say that I am not a novice handler but it has been more then 15 years since I had last owned a dog.

Regarding how long I have the dog? Since she is 8 weeks old. I new from day 3 that she was different from the other dogs I educated and owned in the past. After doing a lot of reading I realized she is a hard dog. Which I have no experience with, and a female, I always had males before.

As for bending over her when laying down to patt her head, it did not quite happened that way, I actually more bent in front of her. Things that I avoid doing now anyways. I leave her be when she is resting and call her if I need her to move. She had a bed and a crate to her disposal and now she has only the crate. She often goes in it to be quiet which facilitate the avoidance of having to step by her when sleeping or just laying down. However, we live in a small house and it is hot here in the south of France so now she preferes laydown on the floor where it is cooler so she is often in our path on our way to the kitchen for exemple. Even though she has been with us since she left her mother and litter mates she needs time to build more trust I suppose. But how long will that take?....I read it can take a looooong time. She might be full grown by then and weigh more than 100lbs. pffff.

Regarding the recall, I started it inside calling her from where ever I was and when she came I would give her a treat. Then I started doing it while holding a leash of about 9 feet. then droping the leash on the ground. That is actually when she stoped coming, she would pick up the leash and run......All game, she is still a puppy. We were able to go to large open space and leave her free and she would follow us and come when called....Now it is imposible to do as she doesn't come when called. I was doing her obedience in a soccer field by our house when it was empty and that we were alone her and I, now I am working her in the garden at our ouse. I took Ed's method that is when she comes to me on her own I say the word "come" then "good girl" and give her a treat. We are back to square one on that.

As for spending more time with her.....I am always with her 24/7. I am not presently working so I am with her from the moment we wake up and go to bed. Like I said, she is not a lap dog and like all Kuvasz she is not that affectionate. I have to respect that but we do have moments during the day when she is calm and come to me for a patt, lickes my hand and lay at my feet. I do not always give her affection on her accord, leaders do not give affection upon demand, sometime I call her for a little patt on MY demand but not excessively. I respect her temperment to be a little away. I play with her but decide when we start and when we stop. I usualy stop when it comes to bitting and jumping.....which I think it is all game and overexcitment. But it is pack behavior and that is where she needs to learn to control herself. She doesn't have a high drive for toys, she gets tired of playing fast. Kuvasz are not highly energetic they are more layback type of dogs. And due to her fast growing she can't run much until she will reach 15 months. But we walk twice daily for about 45 min in the country. BTW on the leash she is very good. And do not demonstrate aggression with dogs behind there fences.....That is MUCH better. She used to pull towards them and act upun there excitment but I did what Ed suggested in one of his podcast and now she stays in the heeling position and waits for the treat that is coming if we pass them without having a correction. So I will try to find some kind of game that she would participate in and put in the obedience sessions in those games.....I have to figure that one out. She is more eager to work for food than for toys.

Once again thank you all and if anyone has more ideas I will gladely read them.

Au revoir, Solange

I've been lurking in the background. I agree with all of the commentary.

As I understand it, you have a 5 month old puppy, a shepherding breed, and there are puppy rebellions and attitudes you are dealing with.

I suppose my vision of the world has to do with creating a relationship that establishes a hierarchy from the start. People first, dog second, etc.

I would work to discourage a dog growling at me if I woke it up. After all, I provide it a place to sleep, on my mat, in my house, etc. A growl is not a outward and visible sign that the dog understands its place in my pack, and it is my responsibility to have it understand so.

If I pick up a lead and the dog growls, similarly I would take a dim view of the growl. There is no equality of place in my pack.

In so far as the dog is proximate all the time, you have the opportunities, at random, to initiate all kinds of brief reinforcing training. The random come, sit, down just to do it. Everything randomly designed to remind the dog of its role in the home. Don't have to be mean but you do have to train with a constant sense of purpose and demeanor. And this approach to formal training sessions.

You have to practice a no nonsense tone of voice that the puppy understands to be the non negotiable tone of voice. Good behavior a more accepting tone, bad behavior the no nonsense tone of voice. I'm a fan of treats and immediate praise for good action, and body language disdain and attitude for bad action.

Left to its own devices, from what I know of shepherd breeds, it will organize the herd. It will lead.

I think I'd have a lead on the puppy all of the time, in the house and outside. I'd get a really long line for outside and we'd probably work on any leash attitude as a specific training objective.

I don't believe in yanking a dog all over the place but there are some behaviors I have zero tolerance for, growling at me would be at the top of the list. Snapping at me would be at the top of the list and correction of some sort would be immediately appropriate in my world.

The puppy has been in your home long enough to have made the transition from litter to you. That is a human consideration that can be over done. It is a part of your home and that is that.

5 months. Two steps forward, one step back. Teaching a 3 year old child takes time and patience. Learned behavior is still in some flux. Expectations need to be adjusted. However some behavior needs to be addressed in a gentle but no compromise manner. Nipping, biting, growling, ignoring, etc. Not acceptable behavior. Compliance gets rewarded, non compliance gets addressed.

I presume you want the dog to be a pet. Decide now to train the dog to become a pet. Set limits, consistently, and reward or correct as the limits dictate. You can love your puppy without liking bad behavior.

You should invest in a drop dead word. What word would you use to immediately refocus the dog on you? For me it is the word Hey with a no nonsense look on my face and matching body language. And then a command. I do not negotiate with dogs. And a puppy can train an otherwise organized adult human to negotiate out of cuteness.

You train with authority and consistency today for the dog you want tomorrow. After all, who wants a puppy for 12 or more years? Not I. And I think puppies are cute.

Marker training is a great technique. But you have to be an actor with any training technique. The dog needs to understand your attitude with a look, in my opinion.

The dog is on your agenda, you are not on its.

But a puppy is a puppy is a puppy. Some are easier and some more difficult but it does takes a lot more to train out bad traits in an older dog than it does to train in good ones in a younger one, in my opinion.

Stand your ground. Set the objectives. Reinforce limits. Profusely immediately praise. Immediately correct. Smiles and frowns. Act like a leader all of the time. You can learn a lot about yourself as you train your dog.

More coffee.

@ Mike

I suppose my vision of the world has to do with creating a relationship that establishes a hierarchy from the start. People first, dog second, etc.

I would work to discourage a dog growling at me if I woke it up. After all, I provide it a place to sleep, on my mat, in my house, etc. A growl is not a outward and visible sign that the dog understands its place in my pack, and it is my responsibility to have it understand so.

If I pick up a lead and the dog growls, similarly I would take a dim view of the growl. There is no equality of place in my pack.

I get all of this, I understand all of it too but do not seem able to accomplish it clearly enough. I totaly lack there and I am well aware of it.....that is why I have been here hoping to get ideas to how to deal with this.....everything I have tried so far have not been working.....I started by doing what I did with my previous dogs, which btw were not hard dogs, I tried what I read and heard on podcasts from Ed Frawley by taking the dog by the cheeks and lift her front paws off the ground, while looking in her eyes untill she looks away....nope!!! I am thinking to get a dominant dog collar.


In so far as the dog is proximate all the time, you have the opportunities, at random, to initiate all kinds of brief reinforcing training. The random come, sit, down just to do it. Everything randomly designed to remind the dog of its role in the home. Don't have to be mean but you do have to train with a constant sense of purpose and demeanor. And this approach to formal training sessions.

Good point I will emphasize on that more.

You have to practice a no nonsense tone of voice that the puppy understands to be the non negotiable tone of voice. Good behavior a more accepting tone, bad behavior the no nonsense tone of voice. I'm a fan of treats and immediate praise for good action, and body language disdain and attitude for bad action.

I do that and since the beginning.....I am verry consistent with tones and words I use.

Left to its own devices, from what I know of shepherd breeds, it will organize the herd. It will lead.

I think I'd have a lead on the puppy all of the time, in the house and outside. I'd get a really long line for outside and we'd probably work on any leash attitude as a specific training objective.

She is on a 10' line permanently

I don't believe in yanking a dog all over the place but there are some behaviors I have zero tolerance for, growling at me would be at the top of the list. Snapping at me would be at the top of the list and correction of some sort would be immediately appropriate in my world.

The puppy has been in your home long enough to have made the transition from litter to you. That is a human consideration that can be over done. It is a part of your home and that is that.


I agree but feel stuck

5 months. Two steps forward, one step back. Teaching a 3 year old child takes time and patience. Learned behavior is still in some flux. Expectations need to be adjusted. However some behavior needs to be addressed in a gentle but no compromise manner. Nipping, biting, growling, ignoring, etc. Not acceptable behavior. Compliance gets rewarded, non compliance gets addressed.


She gets rewards for good behavior and it has been proven that it works as she is not bad all the way through, she can be sweet and obedient and behave like a normal puppy. She NEVER gets rewards for an unwanted behavior, by that I mean for pack behavior.



You train with authority and consistency today for the dog you want tomorrow. After all, who wants a puppy for 12 or more years? Not I. And I think puppies are cute.


I am authoritive and I don't let nothing pass, I am on her like a hawk.

Thanks for your time Mike, I appreciate it

Solange

This is going to sound really old school, and I know I'm going to take some heat for saying this, but here goes...

Not long after I got my GSD, she growled at me once. Once.

Disclaimer: I'm not a LGD expert at all.


But I do differentiate (quite a bit) between herders and LGDs.

Just throwing it out there.

What is mealtime like for this food-motivated pup?

IMO, nothing says "leader" to a dog stronger than reminding them twice a day who is in charge of the food.

I would be putting this dog through her paces and at deferential attention while you prepare the food, put the food down, and enforce a good long wait before releasing her to eat.

Same thing for anything the dog wants or values. Before going through a doorway, before getting any toy, before exiting a crate or car... The dog gets nothing without saying please and acknowledging that you make all the decisions.

You can start these habits by asking for a command (like sit and watch me), and then gradually taper off giving the command. Just stand your ground at each if these moments and wait for her to defer to you by offering the behavior. This teaches self-control. Because you don't want to have to be a drill sergeant forever. Eventually you want her to know what is expected, and to choose for herself the behaviors you want.

For now, I wouldn't even let her decide for herself where to lie down. If she lies in one spot of her choosing, tell her to get up from that spot, and then place her in a down in Nother spot that you select.

Even physical space is a resource (and therefore something a dog might mistakenly think they own and can guard.). Nope. Every square inch if the floor belongs to you.

A leader doesn't alter their path to walk around a dog lying in the way. They barrel through. Anything in the way better move.

It sounds like you're doing the right things--but perhaps not at the proper intensity for this particular dog. Some need more overt leadership--meaning a louder, deeper tone of voice or a harder stare, or a swifter response. One strong correction may do more good than lots of not-strong-enough attempts. Every pup this age tests their limits. Some just need those limits spelled out with more clarity.

Taking the dog by the cheeks and lifting it off it's front feet while staring it in the eyes until it's uncomfortable and looks away? I'm having a hard time comprehending this and what it's supposed to do for a very young puppy. I can imagine using this on a hard dominant adult breed dog and having it lunge at my face to teach me a lesson. Can someone link me to what Solange is talking about?

It seems that the advice from the breeder was short and dismissive with a 'I'll take the dog back if you don't like her.' Make a note that if the breeder isn't completely vested in making the partnership between you and your new dog work 100% then don't bother buying from them again. Giving up shouldn't be an option unless the owner of the dog asks the breeder to take it back.

 Quote: Duane Hull

This is going to sound really old school, and I know I'm going to take some heat for saying this, but here goes...

Not long after I got my GSD, she growled at me once. Once.

If you do this, it really helps to have a dog that cares about what you think... Herding dogs are bred to work with you. My Border Collies have never growled/resource guarded from me more than once and I wasn't really hard on them. But guardian breeds are quite independent and they can take you or leave you sometimes. It still might work if you know what your'e doing but if you don't, or the dog is pretty independent you could have a real predicament on your hands