guess we crossed posts

WHY on earth would your team leader NOT want a recall/refind? I know disaster dogs need bark and hold and a wilderness dog crosstrained on disaster may be best using the same alert in both places but that makes sense.

Nancy, you got a PM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thankyou ALL for taking the time to answer my question. I have lots of learning to do (which I am looking forward to). Bob, I am ordering Ed's TTD tapes this week.

I am going out with a local SAR group next weekend and will learn a little about how they do things. I believe they don't allow a B&H only a recall refind. The local group is called MINNSARDA.

I just want to try to do this right with my girl,I know I will make some mistakes(ok probably a lot)....but I hopefully can limit them. I really respect all of your advice and hope to gain knowledge before I start working on tracking with her as this is something I know nothing about.

Thanks again, and I am sure I will have more questions soon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Corinne

There are many different ways to train a dog to do the same thing that work.

The one biggest mistake I made with Toby (dog 1) was listening to everyone and adjusting a lot.

If you work with someone you trust who knows how to train dogs (my first experience was with someone with a total of one dog's worth of experience and he lucked into a phenomenal dog but did not have the dog knowledge experience for different dogs) stick with one method unless it is clearly NOT working.

What I have been told is that when the dog is stressed they will revert to whatever they were trained to do first.

Nancy, You just hit the nail on the head! In ANY function, those in charge arn't necessarilary the ones who should be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Nancy, thanks that makes alot of sense about sticking with one method (I had similar experiences with training horses). I want to spend some time with the local SAR group (without my dog) and see how they train. Nancy, as you mentioned....Nailing the alert, starting with sentwork vs. air senting sounds like what I would like to do, BUT.......I don't know enough to make an informed decision.

Again thank you, Bob,Laura, and Nancy you ALL helped me alot. Oh ya and Mr. Vancamp you always make me

Thanks All!!!!!!

Hi Corinne and all -

Corinne there are many differences in opinion in many groups and trainers, etc. That's something we all can agree on! It's great that you are doing your homework/research before just going in blindly.

I personally, am totally convinced that a dog should be started with tracking/trailing BEFORE any airscenting work . . . and that is just my humble opinion-not saying I'm an expert by any means, as I learn something new at every training and search, and hope I never not have a light bulb moment day!

When I started with my SAR unit, they taught air-scenting before trailing in their introductory course for new K-9's and handlers. (Not the hounds as they don't do area searches off line)The dogs were actually air-scenting on a tracking line and missing most of the corners, evidence/clues, etc. and . . . well, it wasn't a pretty or more importantly a effective picture or method from what I saw as the result - again my opinion.

I visited them several times before I applied for membership. They were and still are just a phenomenal group of people totally dedicated to service and I treasure each of them and each dog on the team. We have all really grown together and it's been a fantastic & rewarding journey.

(The course syllabus has been changed since then.)

It is hard for some people/coodinators to change their total mindset when they have had the same one all their lives - because that was the way they were taught, etc., without looking like the newbie that wanted to change everything and would result in looking like a troublemaker - which is not an asset on anyteam . . . it was best to humbly *show them* the foundation training I came with and let them form their own opinions. Every member on a team has something to contribute or it is no longer a team but becomes an entity and will not grow/prosper . . . there should be no single "I" on a team OR tunnel vision.

I had started my dog with scent discrimmination work with tracking in drive FIRST before I had joined this team. Still thankful as ever for the initial guidance and recommendations from Ed Frawley and those super Tracking in Drive tapes with the RCMP, and also my great friend and now my Schutzhund TD for the past two years . . .my dog had a solid foundation and understanding to build upon about tracking and scent work before we joined our team.

We didn't start area search problems until we were on the team for six months. I graciousley, but firmly stuck to my ground with this, careful not to offend the SAR training staff - but would not betray my dog and what I truly felt was best for us. The little SMP I have in training now, was taught to track first for many many months before we started with area search problems too. She is strictly live find. She does a refind alert, and my GSD does a bark alert, and multi-disciplined.

He is a natural barker and this is a *natural* alert for him so that's why we went with this type of alert for everything - he's a very verbal dog. He is always vested/with the words SEARCH DOG plain to see in training or on a search - so if a hunter ever shot him - well, we won't go there on the list here as I'm sure you can use your imagination as to what my resulting reaction would be, and he wears a bell -. I think if the *real* victim is afraid of dogs, they will be afraid of any dog and any alert style, my dog's job is to find them - period, and our sole objective. I trust my dog and his ability to approach in a non-threatening manner and if I'm far away, he does come back to me and alert with a bark. We set up training scenarios also where the victim (a new person to the dogs) will ACT *senile* or crazy, or afraid, so we know how our dogs will react to this and also prepare them for this.

The little SMP however, does better with the refind type alert in an area search. However on rubble she will scratch and with enough frustration will bark and we have been building on the bark in that scenario -.

I think it's important not to change with what comes natural in an alert for an individual dog, as you risk the chance of possibly loosing all alert in a stress situation, again, my opinion.

Wendy,
Great points Wendy, Thanks. The group looks like a really nice bunch of people who are very dedicated. I understand there are many different opinions and I need to find what works best for me and my dog. And if need be I will work with my girls breeder and get her foundation training before I bring her into the group (he likes to start with tracking before air-senting).

Looks like I have LOTS OF RESEARCH to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again you guys are great.

Yes Corinne, I've found the people on this list are awesome and all very helpful with tons of combined experience and diverse expertise, I have always been able to get answers to my questions here. You don't have to agree with them all, but you can grow by *listening* to them all.

Just a friendly reminder . . . you will have alot of *Handler/Field* training to undergo yourself, handling/interpreting a S&R K-9 is only PART of it...(my personal favorite though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) Check out your prospective team's requirements for any emergency medical training you need to get started on, and in-services/classes for Scent Theory, Navigation, Search strategies/Lost Person Behavior Tools, Crime Scene/Evidence Preservation, HAZMAT/K-9 Decon, water search techniques/safety, survival skills . . .the list goes on and on and this training is also an ongoing process... so get started ASAP on those skills!!

I hope your introduction/visit with your area SAR team, results in exactally what you are looking for - best of luck to you, and keep us posted!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

. . . That others may Live

To clarify a point...

Not all bark alerts in SAR are bark & hold (B&H) alerts. A dog who finds a person, then runs back to his handler and barks at her to indicate that he's found someone, then he leads his handler back to the person, is doing a type of bark alert. But it's not a B&H alert. In this case, it's just a variation of the very commonly used find/refind. Keep in mind that in this scenario, the person the dog found and his handler may be hundreds of yards apart.

In a B&H alert, the dog would stay with the lost person and bark at him, and the handler is supposed to follow the barking sound to the dog. If the handler has to navigate through a lot of heavy brush or difficult terrain for hundreds of yards, that's a lot of barking.

A dog who is a natural barker can be trained to do a find/refind using a bark alert without turning it into a B&H alert.

Laura Sanborn