Quote: Jenni Williams

Did you breed the female you had that got pyo at 7 and mammary cancer at 8?

This board used to be full of experienced folks who were very interested in optimal health issues; I'm kind of surprised you're the only one interested in this. Seems a lot of dogs could benefit from their owners asking their vet about this.

As an aside, I don't know where in MI you are but I know of a vet in MI who does an OSS for under $150!

No, she was never bred, nor will any of my future females. It's just not something I have a personal interest in doing. I live in the southeastern portion of the state.

I am always interested in keeping up on the latest new research so I can make informed choices regarding the health and well-being of my dogs. I think that's true of the majority of board members here, even if they haven't posted in the thread. I think only a small minority of people actually post. Many, many more are reading and learning.

I'm very interested in all this. I just tend to discuss it in other groups. My current 7.5 m/o male will stay intact unless I have a really good reason to have him neutered. OSS/ Vas are what I would want for any pup that I was getting through rescue where I'd be required to have them altered at a young age. As far as older female, I'm still torn - it would depend on how their heat cycle affected them. But I would want to leave any dog hormonally intact until fully mature at least.

There are problems with this, in my view. Things to consider.

Heats twice a year are a problem for most folks. If there are male dogs in the home, they will be all riled up. Stump pyometra is not unusual. And if you have to go back in for some reason to get the ovaries, they won't be hooked to anything easy to grab, they'll be way down by the kidneys, likely enveloped in adhesions, it will be a bitch of a job to retrieve them.

I missed all the ovarian tissue in 2 dogs (in 17 yrs). Their owners were NOT pleased with the outcome. It was embarassing for me.

I can't imagine doing it on purpose.

I have breeding males who are not "all riled up." That's a management issue, to me, and should not, in my opinion, mean negative health ramifications for the females in the house. I don't think it's right to compromise one animal's health because another animal cannot behave itself or because I cannot manage either one of them.

Pyometra is not all that common to begin with. You don't see all the dogs who never get it. It's scary, sure, but lots and lots of dogs don't get it. More dogs never get it than dogs who get it. Same with stump pyo. How much chance of stump pyo depends largely on the skill of the veterinarian and their competency in getting right at the cervix and removing the entire uterus. Unfortunately, most vets are not taught correct OSS technique so emphasis is not placed on how to get all uterine tissue.

Not leaving what is *known* to provide benefit because of a "what if there's a problem later" mentality, to me, is counter-intuitive and not a philosphy I subscribe to when it comes to my animals' health.

As far as owners not being happy with dogs with ovaries, might I suggest a lovely soft hamster for them! I'm curious how the ovaries were missed and what circumstances led to that, Betty? Did you realize it and tell them or...?

There are more vets who think like you in the "I can't imagine doing it on purpose" than not. That's exactly why I posted this after years of vets looking at me like I had two heads. To each their own, but I think it's important for dogs' sake to get the word out there that this *is* an option for the type owner that is savvy and educated and responsible enough that they wish for an intact dog in terms of health benefits, yet no risk of unplanned pregnancies. Most who have had it done say their males are far less interested. Intrigued, yes, but typically do not try to mount, so if that's the case, that should not present serious management concerns for any but the most inexperienced, imo.

There is a video of the procedure done by Dr. Michelle Kutzler on the Parsemus Foundation website. It's interesting, I think.

Anyway, just wanted to throw out an option for those who have been trying to find a vet willing to do it.

Betty, I appreciate you offering some additional considerations from your own valuable perspective and experience.

When a subject is presented for discussion on a board like this, what makes it interesting and productive is to have opinions from varying points of view, as well as questions from those wanting to learn more about the topic.

The whole subject of whether to keep our dogs intact or to spay/neuter deserves serious, thoughtful consideration on the part of dog owners, and it seems vasectomy for males and ovary-sparing spay for females may become a more readily available option in the near future. In making that choice, the more information available, the more likely the right choice will be made for that dog, its owners, and their individual circumstances.

Management of dogs in one's household is always important, and for some, a female in heat can be a challenging issue. I consider myself a capable and responsible dog owner, but I would have great difficulty keeping dogs separated for the duration of a heat cycle, if that became necessary, due to the very small size and configuration of my house.

So, JMO, I believe this is an important topic, I'm glad it was brought up for discussion, and I appreciate all of the input so far in the thread.

I think it's great to leave the ovaries if this makes the dog a better pet for an owner--- if a thinner bitch, with less shedding, more drive, better orthopedically counterbalances a dog coming into heat twice a year. Anything that a vet can do to improve the chances that the owner keeps the dog in the home for the dogs entire life is a good procedure.

The first dog I left a piece of ovary in by mistake was a l mos pregnant pointer bitch owned by the son of my best dairy client. It was her first pregnancy. She had a tremendously deep chest and it was very hard to get down deep enough to extract all the ovarian tissue. I snagged a vessel deep down and she almost bled to death on the table. I was worried that I'd left ovarian tissue but I was so glad I got the bleeding under control and was able to close her up that I just let her go home and hoped for the best. I am sweating thinking about it! She really almost died.
She came into heat 6 mos later, and every 6 mos for 14 years. The owners didn't seem to mind.
She was a farm dog.

The second dog was a tiny Yorky. The surgery was difficult because she was fat. It seemed that I had an incision as long as the dog. The ovaries were hard to pull up to ligate, the right ovary especially. I wasn't sure how much force I could use, the structures were all so tiny. It took this dog 2 years to come into heat, but come into heat she did. The owners took her to the U to have her ovary removed. I paid for the second surgery.

So that's my experience with leaving ovaries. One owner didn't mind: the second was wildly annoyed. It was a mistake, not planned, not what they expected.

I'm not sure that an OSS will lead to a "better" pet for most people. People seem to want the easiest route possible with a pet. But with studies starting to point to much higher incidences of HD and cruciate injuries in early altered dogs as well as higher incidences of some common cancers then it becomes a long term health matter. I'd still prefer not to deal with heat cycles and if a bitch had signifficant mood shifts or false pregnancy issues I'd still opt for a full spay (becomes a quality of life issue for the bitch). But if she was doing well with her hormones then science seems to be showing that it just might be healthiest overall long term choice to leave those hormones in place.

I do think that Betty raises a good point about the general population. Regardless of our opinions and dedication to our dogs, lots of other people are not going to want to deal with hormonally intact dogs. It becomes a trade off with a long term home beinging the top trump card.

I had all mine spayed/neutered because breeding was never an option, or consideration, and from my perspective, it wasn't about management, or the lack of effort to do it properly, more the torture and frustration I witnessed in friends dogs who were pacing, panting and howling every time the bitch came into season!

For me, I can't see what the issue with spaying, ovaries and all, if you are not going to breed, especially if you have males in the house, and speaking as a human, when I was 'spayed' in their wisdom, the quacks left the ovaries, necessitating further surgery and drug therapy shortly afterward, I consented to leaving them on their advice, but with hindsight, I would have told them to whip them out and be done with it, and if I am being honest, it wouldn't have occurred to me to leave the bitches ovaries.

Interesting topic this one.

It's a tough issue. On the one hand, there's more and more evidence that you significantly increase the risk of orthopedic problems and certain types of cancer by spay/neuter prior to maturity especially. On the other hand, dogs lose their homes over minor issues like jumping or housebreaking. How can you expect the same people to react to the very "male" behavior of an intact male or the messy, annoying heat cycles of an intact/OSS female?

I would like to see vets at least be willing to discuss it as an option rather than aggressively promoting pediatric neuter/spay as most do.

The breeder I'm getting my pup from voids the health guarantee if the dog is fixed prior to a year old.