Most dogs that I have owned do not kill varmints just because. The critter has to fight back, or be evasive. Communication between varmint and dog incites the kill.

Dogs are amoral and will torture prey.

My bull terrier would kill everything with no provocation. This is the only dog I've had that would kill opossums.

 Quote: ian bunbury

hey candi . . . here's a little story that will give you some food for thought .

a couple of years ago I was driving very slowly along a little used road on the mountain I work on . right there in the grass on the side of the road was a coyote , staring fixated on something in the grass . ordinarily you can't get within a 100 yds of a coyote in these parts . he took one slow glance at me , then went back to what he was fixated on . I had a pretty good idea what was going on , so I shut the engine off and waited for the show .

it took about six minutes , but he eventually leapt straight up into the air and pounced on the prey , which turned out be some kind of rodent, a little smaller than the size of a football .

the coyote tossed that thing up into the air several times , chasing it when it hit the ground , before he delivered the death shake . it was almost like he needed to vent some excess energy from standing still for a prolonged period ( obviously I have no idea how long he'd been there before I came along ).

he then trotted off to a nice sunny , grassy spot about 50 yds where he lay down and proceeded to eviscerate the animal .

I felt really privileged to have witnessed that .

based on that experience , I'd say "adobe" isn't that far off what sometimes happens out there where the canids kill for a living . if she had been hungry and that was going to be her next meal , it's possible she wouldn't have played around with it for as long as she did .

When my Akita would sense a critter lurking in the crawl-space under our house, she would Patiently & Silently keep track of it until the unsuspecting invader finally made an appearance out in the open -- Then good ol' Shaka would leap straight up in the air & land on it while holding her forelegs stiff in order to pin it down (this was the "stalk & pounce" phase that might even last an hour or so) ... Next came her immediate choke-out Death Grip on the neck, followed forthwith by her crushing Kill Bite through the skull (WHEW).

She was NEVER hungry, so her dispatching style had nothing to do with food-drive, as eating was NOT one of her passions (same with Lazar my Borzoi) -- This Akita was by far the best ratter I've owned in my whole life, better than any cat I ever had, LOL ... But my new Dobie packmates will BARK like the DEVIL whenever something furry is scurrying around under the floorboards, so maybe that will always be enough to deter any four-footed visitors from coming upstairs in future I sure HOPE so, because my former canine companions had to kill Raccoons in addition to Possums over past years !!!

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

My bull terrier would kill everything with no provocation. This is the only dog I've had that would kill opossums.

Yes, that's why I'm thinking of how my Akita hunted as PURE "kill" drive -- My Borzoi would also dispatch his quarry with expediency too, but the typical TRIGGER of prey-flight was always needed 1st to set his mechanism in motion ... Lots to think about here, so I appreciate everyone's posts, THANKS

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

Most dogs that I have owned do not kill varmints just because. The critter has to fight back, or be evasive. Communication between varmint and dog incites the kill.

Dogs are amoral and will torture prey.

My bull terrier would kill everything with no provocation. This is the only dog I've had that would kill opossums.

I've dug to many terriers facing a big boar coon yet did not engage because the boar coon would just turn it's back on the dog.

in nature it doesn't benefit a critter to fight if it's not actually attacked. Simple injuries could lessen its ability to hunt.

At the same time many terriers (your bully for example) have no issue with rushing right in. It's what they were bred for.

The norther GB terrier breeds were bred to go in and make a kill because the fox were hard on lambs during the spring lambing seasons and the rocky ground was impossible to dig.


In the south of GB the terriers, primarily JRT types were baying dogs because the fox was often flushed out of the den in order to continue the hunt.

In the north the fox was vermin.

In the south the fox was sport.

Thus the selecting for either kill dogs or sport dogs in the terrier world.

We teach high-prey dogs to do bitework by "promoting prey development", or, IOW, building prey drive. We do this much like a wild predator teaches her offspring to hunt and kill. You must remember two things;

1. Some dogs have much higher levels of prey drive than others, largely due to breed and then individual genetics, and

2. Even dogs with high levels of prey drive must be taught "how" to kill. They may figure it out on their own if left to their own devices, but, in the wild, survival means that they be taught by a capable mentor.

The phases of prey drive are stalk, acquire, kill, and defense of prey (or, for training purposes, possession). The casual owner with no goal of properly developed prey drive will use the first two phases, stalk and acquire, to play and train with their dog, but never teach the dog what to do with the prey after he plays with it. In other words, the dog is left in the acquisition phase and never learns to transition to the final two phases of the hunting sequence. Owners who learn to train in drive learn to transition the dog into the kill and possession phases of the drive, and then use this ability to transition the dog through the entire sequence to satisfy the drive and build stable bitework fundamentals. A really good trainer learns to transition the dog quickly from kill to possession to eliminate thrashing and mouthing (typical kill behaviors).

All this to say, the Doberman is a dog that does not have the naturally high prey drive that other hunting and working breeds do. Your dog has probably had a lot of work or play in the initial phases of prey drive, but has never learned to transition completely through and fulfill the drive.

 Quote: Bob Scott

I've dug to many terriers facing a big boar coon yet did not engage because the boar coon would just turn it's back on the dog.

Yes, they would try that with Shaka my Akita -- WRONG MOVE ... Sudden Death for the raccoon !!!

 Quote: Bob Scott

At the same time many terriers (a bully for example) have no issue with rushing right in. It's what they were bred for.

YES, this is what I'm calling "kill" drive, for want of a better word -- Akitas do NOT know the meaning of the phrase, "discretion is the better part of valor", so they always Aim-to-Kill...

 Quote: Bob Scott

In the north the fox was VERMIN.

In the south the fox was Sport.

Thus the selecting for either kill dogs or sport dogs in the terrier world.

Yes, this makes perfect sense, Bob -- On the dark side of the Akita's past they were used for Dog Fighting in their native country ... I'm sure the primary object of that "sport" was for the dog to KILL its K9 opponent while sustaining as Little Injury to itself as possible, hence the breed's Extreme DOG-Aggro And of course with Borzoi in Russia, those hunts were a "kill or BE killed" proposition between the Domestic vs the Wild canids.

 Quote: Duane Hull

1. Some dogs have much higher levels of prey drive than others, largely due to breed and then individual genetics...

Yes, this is an obvious Given -- My mistake was in assuming that All Dogs WITH HIGH Prey Drive would naturally follow-through with a Quick Kill ... I was basing that false assumption on many decades of experience with Dachshunds, Basenjis, Irish Wolfhounds, Whippets, Greyhounds, Borzoi and my Akita "Shock & Awe" Shaka

 Quote: Duane Hull

2. Even dogs with high levels of prey drive must be taught "how" to kill. They may figure it out on their own if left to their own devices, but, in the wild, survival means that they be taught by a capable mentor.

The phases of prey drive are stalk, acquire, kill, and defense of prey (or, for training purposes, possession).

Owners who learn to train in drive transition the dog into the kill and possession phases of the drive, then use this ability to...build stable bitework fundamentals. A really good trainer learns to transition the dog quickly from kill to possession to eliminate thrashing and mouthing.

Interestingly, my Akita would NEVER thrash any Prey, though I had expected her to use that "spine-snapping" move -- Instead, she would apply ONE Full-Mouth CHOKING Grip to the neck, so that her quarry would quickly Pass Out from hypoxia & suppressed blood-flow to the brain ... Then she would Immediately deliver a Crushing KILL-BITE through the Skull.

 Quote: Duane Hull

All this to say, the Doberman is a dog that does not have naturally high prey drive...

Actually, they are VERY KEEN to Chase & Lunge at wild birds and feral cats (neither of which I encourage) -- HOWEVER, here's where my thinking is right now: I currently believe this is NOT a function of Prey Drive with my Dobermans, but is based more on them being Ultra-Guardy of me & my property ... So, I'm presently seeing their aggro toward critters as "Territorial Possessiveness" rather than being true Prey Drive at all (???)

 Quote: Duane Hull

Your dog has probably never learned to transition completely through (the kill phase) and fulfill the drive.

Well, no one & no other dogs ever taught my former breeds (listed above) to "develop" Their PREY Drive -- So I feel that it was Naturally Hardwired and then Selectively Bred into them ... But it's quite interesting for me to hear you say how the sequential phases of Prey Drive can be developed & manipulated in dogs who participate in bite-sports or work in various professional protection venues (none of which are usually Hunting Hounds and only rarely Akitas either).

THANKS for all this food-for-thought, Duane

If natural prey drive means that the dog does not have to be taught to hunt and kill, why do wild predators teach their young? It may be present, but teaching and development are essential to perfect the transitions. A dog may show all the signs of high prey drive and instinct may guide him, but it can actually become a usable skill if the dog learns how to transition properly. Of course it is hard-wired and genetic, and instincts come with the drive, but there is still a purpose in developing prey drive fully. You can't teach a dog to have prey drive, but you can teach him control while in the drive and you can teach him how to kill economically.

The chasing and lunging are part of the stalking and acquisition phases of the drive. The dog you describe is not transitioning through the kill, and is therefore not even reaching the defense phase. If the Dobie had a prey drive equivalent to that of a sighthound, his instincts would be stronger and he would need less assistance to make the transition (kill).

With hunting dogs, you don't want them to transition. You keep them in stalk as much as possible. With terriers and other critter dogs, they instinctively transition very quickly and efficiently through the drive, but taking the dead prey from them quickly keeps them high in drive and thus allows the hunt to continue after a kill.

Herding was developed in dogs by emphasizing specific behaviors in the stalking phase of prey drive. Collies may display signs of extremely high prey drive, but they are taught (over generations and generatioons of breeding and training) NOT to transition from stalk to acquisition while working. The same dog CAN make the transition while playing tug.

The most interesting to me is the pointer. This dog has an instinct that compels them to freeze at an exact point in the stalk. This makes it very easy to teach them an indication. Upon command, the dog's next instinct is to flush, which is the first step in transitioning fro stalk to acquisition.

Just "for the record" here:

I'm NOT arguing against what you're posting, but am just Thinking Aloud about your points is all, Duane

 Quote: Duane Hull

If natural prey drive means that the dog does not have to be taught to hunt and kill, why do wild predators teach their young?

I DUNNO -- Same reason we teach our children to Talk ??? They would definitely develope that skill WITHOUT learning it from any teacher ... Example: twins make up a language only they speak BEFORE learning their Mother Tongue from parents.

 Quote: Duane Hull

It may be present, but teaching and development are essential to perfect the transitions.

That was never the case with ANY of my Dachshunds, Basenjis, Irish Wolfhounds, Whippets, Greyhounds, and Borzoi, or Akita -- So I have drawn my conclusions based on almost 70 years of experience with Those Particular breeds, but NOT with Herders ... Is there an Inherent Difference between what has been Selectively Bred into them OR out of them by stockmen ??? I would say: YES

 Quote: Duane Hull

A dog may show all the signs of high prey drive and instinct may guide him, but it can actually become a usable skill if the dog learns how to transition properly.

No doubt this is True -- My only point is that Some Breeds do NOT need any Training in Transitioning at all, but are 100% WISE to the entire sequence of Prey Drive phases right from the Get-Go, per my list above ... And here's a Counter-Point: Borzoi are Born knowing how to course & kill PREY, but no amount of training can ever teach them to learn the skills of a PPD.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Of course it is hard-wired and genetic, and instincts come with the drive, but there is still a purpose in developing prey drive fully. You can't teach a dog to have prey drive, but you can teach him control while in the drive and you can teach him how to kill economically.

I'm sure that is also totally True -- My point here is still that Some Breeds do NOT have to be taught "Economic Killing" either by their OWN species OR by human handlers (please refer to my list again) but perform like a pro, even the 1st Time ... Have you ever owned any of the dogs on my list & seen them Hunting WITHOUT Instruction ??? Believe me, they are Very EFFICIENT Predators, sans lessons.

 Quote: Duane Hull

The (Dobermans) you describe are not transitioning through the kill, and are therefore not even reaching the defense phase...

Duane, kindly note that I was NOT describing any "defense of their kill" (Guarding dispatched Prey) but was rather musing on them Defending our Territory FROM LIVE Animal Interlopers -- Whole DIFFERENT Drive (IMHO) the self-satisfaction of which is derived by the dog from Warding Off intruders WITHOUT any Engagement (deterring would-be Invaders at the border) ... Typically, fighting & killing over territorial boundaries is to be AVOIDED if at all possible in wild canid populations.

 Quote: Duane Hull

If the Dobie had a prey drive equivalent to that of a sighthound, his instincts would be stronger and he would need less assistance to make the transition (kill).

Yes, AGREED

 Quote: Duane Hull

With terriers and other critter dogs, they INSTINCTIVELY transition very quickly and efficiently through the drive...

YES, my point Exactly !!!

 Quote: Duane Hull

The most interesting to me is the pointer. This dog has an instinct that compels them to freeze at an exact point in the stalk...

Virtually every dog I've ever owned has had An INSTINCTIVE Pointing reflex when sensing critters within range (some more pronounced and some less so) -- Adobe my Dobie points like a Field Champion English Pointer, as did Shaka my Akita ... Adonis my other Doberman not so much (he does the Freeze on all Fours but doesn't hold it for as long at a time) LOL.

FUN discussion, Duane, THANKS -- Adding a Disclaimer: when using the Generic term "Breeds" above, I obviously acknowledge a slight spectrum of Variation between individual Dogs of any Breed (the exception PROVES the rule)

I don't believe the prey drive (chase) is automatically connected to a kill drive.

The Border Collie is the perfect example of this.

Crazy prey but, ideally, their desire to kill quarry is low.

Terminology rears it's ugly head here because many hunters automatically put both the chase and the kill together as "prey".

ALL my terriers had over the top chase but one of my show dogs (Norwich) had no desire to do much of anything other then chase if it was larger then a mouse.