Quote: Cheri Grissom

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

I do agree with your great and thoughtful responses. I only don't agree fully, Cheri, that reading different dogs can't be taught. I wasn't able to read my dogs and of course not unknown ones some years ago. But thanks to communicating with experienced people, reading a lot and taking courses I learned it much better in between, though it's far from really done. If someone hasn't learned a good part of it already during childhood it will take years and years, I guess. I think it needs the wish to learn it, then you'll open your eyes, listen to other people and compare.

Thanks for your comments, Christina. You phrased it nicely, and I think we are mostly in agreement. I may have worded my comments in my previous post poorly. I do believe people can learn to read dogs, and most people who are good at it probably spent years in the learning process. Having a natural talent for it is definitely helpful, but I didn't mean to suggest that only people who are lucky enough to be born that way could be successful trainers/instructors.

I think reading dogs is something you have to learn by experience. I don't think you can sit down and read a book or watch a video and be able to accurately read dog body language. Dogs have their own little quirks - and they often don't read the books.

For instance - Fennec has this crazy habit of baring her teeth when she's happy. The more teeth you see the happier she is. Others would read this as aggression. Especially because she also typically has her ears back when she does it... another sign of aggression. But in her case, aggression is the last thought on her mind - first and foremost is getting a belly rub...

Accurately reading dogs is an art form - it can be learned to some extent, but the great ones come by it naturally.

When I look for a trainer or instructor, I want someone who has worked several breeds of dogs in several different sports. I don't want someone who's only titled Goldens in AKC Obedience as the chances that they have experience with a dog like Fennec or Toni are pretty remote. If they don't understand my dog, how can they possibly be able to tell me how to train her? Even if they know the sport inside and out....

I also don't really care too much about an alphabet following a name - Michael Ellis doesn't have an alphabet and he's the best I've ever worked with Book learning, again, is not the same as real world experience.

I've taken several local training classes - I am actually going to be taking one with Fennec here in November. The people I take lessons with are pretty open to other training methods - even if they differ from what they are teaching. This is important to me as inconsistency in training can screw a dog up pretty royally.

Just my 2 cents - take it for what it is

Kel

Kelly, I was hoping you would weigh in here. I appreciate your very insightful comments. And your opinion means a lot more than two cents to me -- a lot more!

Agree fully, Kelly. I with my short experience of dog training with four dogs had to learn to differenciate the various individual expressions. You're right, when a dog shows his teeth I initialially read it as agression and was worried. Meanwhile i know (only observing my own dogs) that it is mostly a kind of "laughter". Though when Slippie shows her teeths together with pulling up her lefts and growling it is a clear warning sign. Not yet aggression but like saying: "Take off from here, respect my space!".

Reading books, watching videos etc. for me was very important, but of course just steps to tell me know how i could observe better. Experience, experience is all and I wish I could have gained more decades earlier.

Great contribution from you. Thanks a lot.

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

Would you place any importance on any of the various certifications that are available out there, like APTD, CCPDT, etc.?.

The only certifications I would consider to be a plus are the IACP and NADOI certs. Other than that the certifications mean that they have agreed to limit certain techniques, tools, and methods without regards to the individual dog in front of them. I have seen very few competent APDT trainers in particular and some of those organizations are actively campaigning to get tools banned(Pet Professional Guild).

I sometimes attend a class run by a training club very similar in structure to what you were talking about with volunteers. It works okay. But just okay. I happily ignore the instructor when I know something isn't going to work or doesn't apply to my dog but I know what those things are. Admittedly, if I had a normal pet dog temperament dog I would follow more of the recommendations. I bring my American Bulldog though. I do not recommend the club to the average dog owner but once you get past the basic classes it's an excellent venue to socialize dogs and drill them in. The more advanced classes are run by people who have been competing for a good few decades and have handled many different types of dogs.

For basic obedience classes - My local training club puts the most inexperienced instructors in this class and that's a big mistake IMO. Beginning obedience classes are never just obedience as most people finally seek one out because of behavior issues. They need a system that they have put many dogs through and can reliably say will work. They need to understand the various quirks that a dog's structure can bring up. Short legged dogs need a different strategy for teaching a down and a GSD or other angulated breed may need a little bit different methods for the sit. They need to know how to quickly gain control over a class and deal with reactive dogs effectively. The current method at my local club is a GL and dragging them away from other dogs. One of the instructors recently told me how surprised they were to learn that the Gentle Leader is not supposed to be used in that manner. They are also trying to put up visual barriers but are not using them properly so it just adds to the dog/owner frustration.

For agility - They need to be experienced and have taken it upon themselves to learn biomechanics and such as applies to many different dogs. You can really hurt a dog teaching them to do things wrong. They really need to be a professional or directly overseen by one ESPECIALLY in beginning classes.

Nosework - The instructors need to have patience and a demonstrated ability to turn out a dog that knows what they are looking for rather than hunting food residue. Pretty easy though. I prefer the Kroyer method for pets. It shapes it rather than trying to pair the odor with food. It's easier for lower drive pets IMO.

Tracking - People need to know what they want. Do they want a dog that just finds the end object/person or a foot step tracker for competition? Most tracking classes end up acting very independently of their parent club/facility simply for the fact that they are in different locations and meeting at different times.

CGC - They need to be a master of teaching impulse control. The AKC Novice is easier than the CGC for a lot of dogs. LOL They also need to be extremely clear about what the CGC is and is not. I got asked a lot about doing the CGC so their dog could go everywhere with them as a Service Dog. Not even remotely related. They also need to be dedicated to preserving the integrity of the test. I've seen a lot of dogs that should NEVER have passed a CGC with the title. Trainers feel like they have to pass the person because "oh, they've worked soooo hard". Some dogs are simply not eligible for the CGC due to dog aggression and what not but people will train to the test and get them through.

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

Should you have to have knowledge working with a variety of breeds and temperaments, and a variety of handlers of different abilities and temperaments?

Absolutely! To me, this is the most critical part. They have to be as comfortable working with a hyper young lab as they are working with a reserved Akita or a hard to motivate Lhasa.

First of all, Cathy, it's good to see you around the board! Thank you so much for your very thoughtful comments, which I know come from a lot of experience on your part.

FWIW, I agree with all of your observations. I think that, if a training club wants to maintain a reputation for providing top-notch, quality instruction in a large variety of types of classes, the instructors need to be top-notch, too, and each should have extensive experience with dog training, in general, and in the specific type of class they are instructing. I would not want to take classes at a facility that did not follow those basic tenets.