Bob : that is why i like to have a blind line on the dog ,so i can still do corrections if i have to,it's really paracute cord ,but this is not done untill the dog is working well on leash.And you are right people are to eagar to let the dog off when they think the dog is ready,and infact they are not. Peter

long lines are a great way to transition to off leash obedience. although i strongsly suggest remote collars. there's nothing better than having control over your dog, without being attatched. think of it as an invisible leash.

You guy ( and gals) are great. I was wondering how long it would take befor the E-C was mentioned. I go from the lead to a line made of 50lb fishing line. and then the E-C. But you are 100% right on the turns. anything to keep them focased and interested. Walking at one pace is boring.

IM A K-9 OFFICER AT INDIANA STATE PRISON, MY K-9 IS A 2YEAR OLD ROTTWEILER I WORK THE K-9 EVERY DAY ON THE STREET. HE DOES VERY WELL ON LEAD BUT WHEN IT COMES TO OFF LEAD,THERES DAYS WHEN HE WILL DO JUSTFINE THEN THERE IS DAYS WHERE HE SEEMS BORED AND DOES NOT WANT TO DO IT.IVE HAD MAX FOR 6MONTHS NOW I HAVE WOKED WITH VARY HARD TO GET HIM WHERE HE IS AT TODAY.WE HAVE TO CERTIFY ARE K-9 I.P.W.D.A WE DO THE SAME TEST AS THE POLICE DEPT. THE OFF LEASH IS THE LAST THING I HAVE TO DO BEFORE I CAN CERTIFY HIM IN AGGRESION CONTROL. WHAT CAN I DO TO KEEP HIM FOCUSED ON THE DAYS WHEN HE DONT FEEL LIKE DOING IT?

Originally posted by scott clouse:
IM A K-9 OFFICER AT INDIANA STATE PRISON, MY K-9 IS A 2YEAR OLD ROTTWEILER I WORK THE K-9 EVERY DAY ON THE STREET. HE DOES VERY WELL ON LEAD BUT WHEN IT COMES TO OFF LEAD,THERES DAYS WHEN HE WILL DO JUSTFINE THEN THERE IS DAYS WHERE HE SEEMS BORED AND DOES NOT WANT TO DO IT.IVE HAD MAX FOR 6MONTHS NOW I HAVE WOKED WITH VARY HARD TO GET HIM WHERE HE IS AT TODAY.WE HAVE TO CERTIFY ARE K-9 I.P.W.D.A WE DO THE SAME TEST AS THE POLICE DEPT. THE OFF LEASH IS THE LAST THING I HAVE TO DO BEFORE I CAN CERTIFY HIM IN AGGRESION CONTROL. WHAT CAN I DO TO KEEP HIM FOCUSED ON THE DAYS WHEN HE DONT FEEL LIKE DOING IT? Scott,

*** DON'T USE ALL CAPS ***

Answer to your question: Less is more for a good dog. Work shorter and in drive. Always quit when your dog wants to work the most.

Secondly, use the dog's social attraction as a tool to motivate. When your dog is showing signs of lag in drive you can )if the dog is not defensive to you) push off with your hand into his/her side.

Like a tussle on the floor at home most working dogs enjoy the “Pat and Play” game.

Try this: When heeling, wait for the dog to look away from you and as soon as he does push him to the side say, “good” with your hand (not hard but in play like way) and then as fast as you touched him place eyes forward as if nothing happened...take a few more steps and FREE/release the dog and play/reward the dog with a drive motivator such as toy or food. Then put the dog away for not less than 15 minutes and repeat not more than 2 more times that day.

Some reading this, maybe even you, may discount this but try it and you will see the dog bouncing back to you with better attitude at least for a short time so you can divert the activity that you are over doing based on your dog's work ethic.

Working attitude and work ethic can be built but only if you have enough vision to know when to quit. ALWAYS PUT THE DOG AWAY AT THE HIGHEST MOST ACTIVE DRIVE.

The next thing I would focus on if I were your trainer is how much do you keep your dog under command? Notice I did not say control but command. You should know your dog well enough to have in place the control you need but any dog under the gin will drop drive like a bad transmission. My dogs at home seldom are told to do anything thus no mistakes a remade for failing to obey. I use command because I mean it and need it not because I think the dog must be a robot waiting for new commands to run.
Relax with the dog but be alert to him as much as you want him to be alert to you and from there you should be able to see where you can fix the problems.

Scott

I have a totally different approach, to obedience training, it has nothing to do with drive and every thing to do with correction and imprinting, send me your email address and I will post you the detail – if you like. – My direct Email ; Reinierg@Ekurhuleni.com

Scott,

Since we aren't talking about a sport dog, I am with Reinier. It sounds like the dog is just giving yuo the finger on some days. I would just put the leash back on and do some correction work and then take it back off and work the off leash stuff. Many dogs in Breeds like the Rott will pull this just to se if they can. Once they learn that you are serious, they will comply rather than have to go back on the leash.

I don't know if the dog has a problem with obedience because it is not stated the dog won't do it. It is my guess the dog is compelled with corrections because he must work ( I don't disagree with this) yet if all the components of timing, consistency and motivators are not balanced the dogs true ability is not being utilized fully.

Many k9 handlers are over dominant without balancing the relationship. If the dog is a lag dog there is a problem because patrol dogs made to work will "work" but in reality may not being doing the job well because he is not interested in the work or fearful of handler displeasure and focusing on it. It is always a balance of work vs. bond. Poor timing, over compelling the dog with a lack of a fair and consistent training application of those correction will lead to tanking the dogs working attitude and thus compromising its effectiveness.

Those that compel yet offer a consistent rule of that force with proper timing for solid associations for the command applied consistently will not see the lack of drive over time because the dog knows the rules and is satisfied with the relationship. I don’t see where in Scott's post that he indicated the dog does not do the work only he works with low working attitude.

This points to 3 reasons:

1) Poor timing
2) Lack of consistent application
or
3) Lack of a proper motivator either compulsion or reward that could be either to much or to little.

To Dennis, I train my PSD’s totally different from Sport or Protection, because the job description is totally different so are the dogs temperament and nerve and so are the rules for engagement and evaluation etc, I hear what you are saying, and it’s 100%, I see it in Protection class every weekend, but I do not carry this philosophy over to Police dogs training, if the dog can not stand hard working he does not belong in PSD work. So I decided to post it openly so you can see why.

Scott, I checked your standard: the certification is in line with normal protocol for police dog certification and evaluation, you wont be able to accomplish this by your self, you need formal training from a knowledgably police dog instructor to accomplish this, I don’t know where you are in this, so I would go back to basics to start of with, train obedience and more basic obedience and more basic obedience, to get the dog to work well off lead you need to work him hard on lead in basics, by hard I mean no maybe – heal, or maybe sit, it has to be perfect every time all the time dead on the spot heal, tight against the leg, and a head in front of the knee, type posture - all the time, with a lot of left, right, and turn about’s plus Halt. Get the dog fit, go running with him rotties are keen swimmers once they get the hang of it.

Halt is not a sit command, the halt command is silent or verbal and is taught by first teaching sit in the heal, I don’t know if you drill, but yes with a Police/ Military dog we drill, and some of this training could help you with your dog, very view agency still train this, don’t take my word for it try it and reap the benefits.

With a dog, you halt on the right foot, pick it up your knee until it’s level with your belt, height level to start off with, and slam it in to the ground, on every sit, but change the sit command to halt in the heal position, this way your dog will sit when you come to a stop, any where with out command, you train this at varying speed in straight lines of 100 meters a foot is 32 cm, running, - be careful not to do it on wet grass, slipping is dangerous- slow march, and normal pace.

Once you have master this, 3 training sessions of 1 hour, yes no Mickey Mouse work, it should be ample. You will see his head start turning and he will look at your feet and knee or over his shoulder, the dog must not look like a wet towel on a lead that you are dragging over the field– now the dog will concentrate, or have a neck like a giraffe, if the dog heals well he will translate that in to a very good sit/stay, and so on, proofing the dog by getting a agitator to come around and working him on leave command or halt, in the heal, by working him in to halt if he breaks position – if done correctly he will not break, until you give him the command. That is why we teach halt it’s a good hard don’t go any where soon, but sit still and stay still- command in one word.

The second exercise is stay, down stay on a re-call, and out of sight stay for at least 15 minutes with you at 100 meters hiding but in visual range for you to see him, circle stay, where you get people to walk around the dog while you have him stay, with or with out dog etc. etc…….

And the list possible things to train to proof the dog are endless. And I believe so are the ideas.

The full extract of the evaluation is at this sight: http://www.ipwda.org/certificationrules.htm

Reiner I am not questioning whether the sport dog vs. the police k9 should have a hard work ethic. As you know I too demand the dog to work and work well. Scott’s problem as he explained was NOT in reliable performance but a “lag dog” attitude off leash.

Those main reasons for such a reaction is as I have outlined and my solution to improve the dogs performance will stand and work. Police, protection, sport the dog needs redirected and the working relationship improved to maximize the dog’s ability.

Maybe it is handler error or maybe this is a dog who should have never been a police k9..I don’t know but if all he wants is the dog to pick up the 3 reasons I stated should be examined.

I don’t care if the dog is the presidents of the USA’s own protection dog and reputed to be the best or if the dog goes for broke on the trial field. The dog does his job and if we can help him do it better we should because there is nothing wrong with a dog who not only knows he must work but likes his job as far as I am concerned.