The pits were removed from the jump area for the safety of the dogs weren't they? I'm enjoying the first series of discussion and it's great.
Questions: How would one start to learn more about French Ring? What makes French Ring different than Schutzhund or Personnal Protection Training? Who can participate in this sport? About how long does it take to get a dog ready for the lower titles? What age do you start training them for this sport? Do you start with obedience or protection work? And what age is the best time to start a puppy with the beginning work of ring? If one was to get involved in this sport, how much time needs to be devoted for training to FR3 or lowest title and so on? Jerry, How long did it take you to train your Axel to FR3? Thank you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Jon Paul

Hi, JP, how have you been?

On a scale of 1-10 your logical attempt to answer the question about the ending of using the pits would only score a 0.5

Safety was perhaps how they wanted to have the change thought as but no there was a different reason in the final decision in regard to the pits and the palasade.

First it was becoming very difficult to locate stadiums in France that would allow the soccer fields or such to be dug up so that a Championship could take place.

It was the reluctence of these major stadiums that was a significant part of the decision to change these rules.

Regular club trials were not the problem nor were even the selectives which are to determine which 26 dogs make it to the French Championship.

By the way, these 26 that do make it to the Finals minus the eventual Champion of France are refered to with the highest honors as FINALISTS.

The dogs making it beyond normal regionals to go do battle to be wittled down to the FINALISTS are also with honor and called SELECTIVE.

My Rocky Bayard Ring III, Campagne 500, Nara and Picardi France Ring III Champion was also Selective.

There was another reason also in addition to the Stadium Problem.

Without the pits then a Judge could have the jumps placed anywhere on the field he was judging on. Thus no real home team advantage with the jumps in a stationary position.

We before the change in the jump rule placed our clubs jumps directly beside the exit gate and you would not believe how many good jumping dogs from outside clubs had problems jumping when they thought that they were in fact leaving the field.

Ringsport is not just great agility, bitework and stuning obed during the application of the bitework. It is a game of thought and stratagy.

How one would learn more about Ringsport is simple. Attend trials and seminars as they come up in your area. Join NARA and obtain a rulebook and be prepared to take more than an afternoon to read and learn these rules .

The book of Rules for the person in Trial and the Decoy is very thick.

The rule book is not that expensive at all. Fact is a box of beer costs more. Much more.

There are no restrictions as to who can trial in Ringsport provided that the person is a member of an accredited recognised by the SCC sanctioned body. In the case of Americans then that being NARA.

There are many differences between the sports of SCH and Ring and then there are none.

The none part is both take well bred dogs and a lot of planned work and goals to work towards but this is the end of the common traits.

Ring has no tracking and our search of the blinds is not directed. The search is done from a stationary position and the dog is sent to locate the decoy and alert the handler but really the judge who then indicates to the handler to come and pick up his dog which still does not happen as the decoy just as the handler arrives from a signal from the judge will escape twice with gunfire to steal as many meters (Yards)as he can on each escape. This is followed up with an escort back to a predetermined location with an additional two more escape attemps. This escort can be very realistic as in the decoy could fake being drunk to fool the dog into biting when it should not.

The most obvious difference in the bite work is in Sch there is only the sleeve and in Ring there is a full suit and the dog can bite anywhere on this suit.

Another big differnce is the challenge that the dog will see from the decoy. Decoys are not to help in any bite and at the Ring III level you will see decoys who simply do not let your dog bite and perhaps run the dog.

In the highest level of trial, selective and Championship expect to see real serious stick hits that will stop any form of weakness from going any farther. Dogs may get a bop on the noodle during entry from the stick.

This level will send some dogs home never to trial again in the old capacity.

It is a fight, Remember.

There are many, many more differences but these can be addressed in a different thread I am sure.

One differnce also is Ring is done in one shot , one place. No this here and that there and each dog doing individual work in sequence to the others.

In France Dogs are at the Three Level as early as 18 months and a dog cannot trial until; one year of age.

I start training my pups at birth through the imprint of eating and suckling on the mother by taking her milk and dripping it all over my fingers and allowing the pups to also imprint on myself as a source of life and the need for that source.

This makes for a very easy transition when I begin the whistle training at 4 weeks of age and by the time they are 5-6 weeks old rock solid on the whistle recall and then ready to begin the prelim bite and prey testing. At 7 weeks I have made my own decisions which are to move forward.

They are conditioned to the stick and the gun at this point also. 8 weeks and they are blowing past a stick that is being used very firm and through the 22 blank gun shots just like the big guys.

Time to invest in training is up to the individual. In France some train everyday at the club.

As far as Axel was concerned he was ready for his III by the time he was Two but took until he was Three due to the lack of trials at that time in North America.

There are more trials in France in two weeks than the entire year for all of the States and Canada.

Each year over 6000 dogs are titled in ring in France with about 600 or more attaining the three.

I trialed three seperate trips to California, A couple to Michigan, our home field twice and also another Canadian club close to home. That was for the three and then there were the two Championships, one in Denver and the other outside my front door at our home field.

He set his first Highest Score Record for North American trained Ring III at the Caladon Ring Club in Canada and the final and one that still stands today at the Tropical Ring club in Florida.

The Axe Man and I put over 35,000 miles on in the air and on the ground going from field to field within Canada, United States and France.

He would get far to bent out of shape going into the airport as he knew that the fight was coming and sedation was the only way to keep him relaxed.

For myself the protection and obed is started at the very same time. During the imprint stage.

Hope I answered everything Jon Paul

Jerry

Hi Jerry..great discussion thread!! Thanks for telling me about it.
I have a question....of all the dog sports which do you think is the most precise and why? I have been told that SCH is more precise than FR for example because of the guarding. I was under the assumption that FR was one of the more difficult sports due to its precision. I know you will have some good answers! Trying to learn all I can!

Monique, great question but one that is without a defined answer. Lets see how I can get around this and apease everyone reading.

When any of the protection sports that are amongst the main stream of what we think about in terms of the recognised sports. Example: Sch, Ringsport, KNPV, Mondio, NVBK, Belgian Ring, RCI, Campagne and there are a few more that I am sure that I have missed here.

When any of these sports along with Police Trials and or the correct application of a working Police Dog, SAR or any of the various Detection Dogs are being presented as they should and the results are of a high degree, then, they all are as you say, Precise.

I have heard the argument that this sport is better than that sport and this other sport is not even in the park so many times that I chuckle as the people who excell at any of the different disaplines are working to the same level of precision and dedication. the two very much are connected.

Each has a different twist and perhaps the commands are in various language's along with different formats but the dog that is not honed to the precise exercise does not succeed.

I like to watch a dog work with precision in any sport and see the effort and skill a handler committed themslves and the dog to.

I love Ringsport but I am not so hung up that I cannot see merit and education from others.

Fact is the last two seminars that I paid to attend were Sch. Seminars and guess what. I learned about things that were lacking in my Ring training that helped me attain addition precision in my own work not only in the sport training but in my day to day private obed and pro security and street protection work.

Precision is only your state of mind as it will be viewed differently by others who might not share the same concept of what a good dog is.

A good dog is PRECISLEY that a GOOG DOG, Period.

There is one other guage of precision. It comes in three positions. First, Second and Third, all others that day need to adjust.

Jerry Cudahy

Hello Jerry and Monique,
If I can give my input on Monique's thoughts, here is my take on the difference between Schutzhund and FR. The hold and bark in Schutzhund requires a very convincing bark and guard exercise without bumping the helper while in the FR hold and bark, I believe the dog can place himself anywhere near the decoy and barks but can touch the decoy with his body (example is the guard in between the legs) while in the blind. The obedience, focused heeling is very pretty and beautiful to look at. The FR heeling on leash is also very pretty and precise as points I believe are removed for forging and lagging but with a very small room for error as it's a very low point exercise. The retrieves in Schutzhund are very precise where no dumbell movement, correct front and finish , plus correct jumps on the hurdle, a-frame and the intensity of the dog's approach to taking that dumbell and bringing it back are all critical to the judging which is a much higher point exercise than FR. In FR, there are the 3 retrieves where one is a thrown, then there's the scent discrimination one and of course there's the one that the dog catches the retrieve article as it drops and races past the handler and comes back to the handler and finishes. These are 3 different retrieves, very precise and I'm sure lots of work to teach. The "vorouz" in Schutzhund is pretty but so is the "send-out" in FR. There is also another exercise in FR where the dog is called back, inches before the bite which is similar to a vorouz? I believe that the jumps in FR are very much a challenge for the dogs in comparison to Schutzhund. Both sports are very beautiful as Schutzhund asked for crispness with lots of drive in working all 3 phases at the tops and at the same time, FR requires control and determination on a dog's character to take on the challenge that's placed upon him or her by the opposing decoy. I've been watching lots of the tapes on both sports and what a wonderful way to spend time training these great dogs. These handlers are quite amazing. Jon Paul

Hi Jerry, can you tell me if there is any Ringsport or other dog sports in the Hamilton,Ont. area?

Mitch I sent the info you needed to your E-Mail.

Something to think about if you are serious about taking a shot at Ring is to form a group specific to the Hamilton area.

Jerry,
I have to sort thru old copies of Dog Sport magazine to follow the old history of Ring Sport in America.
I have a question for you - I've been told that the first titles recieved in Ring Sport were at the Denver trial ( ARF) in 1986. However, in my reading I see that Stewart wrote that the first trial that was sanctioned by the SCC and titles given in the America was actually in 1988.
Any idea which date is correct?