I find that in my area sch and french ring are not done the way that it sould be.Its almost a embaresment to the sport. Alot of dogs with week nerves make it to ring 2 or 3 and the weekness is past on. The excuss that I was told is that their dogs will only bit the fabric and will not bite anything but. I would not trust a dog like that to protect me, or to do police work. I belive that a realy good sport dog could do police work. But what I see going on today is not what the tests were ment to test and I am very disapointed not seeing the strong level of dogs that I would expect. I think that if I went to the U.S or to europe with a dog like that I would get chewed up and spit out. Im in canada and I think that the french ring needs to come a long way to find its self again. I think that ASR or PSA would be a better test for me and my dogs. I think that brining something new and fresh would be the way to go. let me know what you people think. I have recived realy good feedback. thanks

Dave

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
Ron,
that may hold true for PSA, but it doesn't for ASR. At the last ASR trial that I attended, a strong competitor with an excellent SchH II male GSD ( a very strong dog , in my opinion ) got creamed on points for treating a bark and hold as a sport. It was only that the dog was so strong for the rest of the trial that it passed. 90% of SchH dogs that I've sen would not be able to achieve an ASR title.

Yes, most SchH dogs couldn't pass a FR1 test, but the flip side of that holds true. Most FR dogs would be severely penalized by the poor quality of their bites in a SchH title.
Different sports, different training for it - no surprise that training for one sport doesn't prepare you for another - that's just common sense. I'm in the middle of cross-training a GSD in French Ring and Schutzhund. The plan is to get a Brevet and FR I early, then to concentrate on Schutzhund for I, II, III after he turns 2 yrs old.

My experience so far is that while FR scoring doesn't take bite quality into account, the other factors in the training make it easy for the dog to adjust to the Schutzhund sleeve. No esquives and less stick pressure make it easy for the dog to like a Schutzhund sleeve.

After working very hard to get leg bites and shoulder bites against a moving decoy with an active clatter stick, my dog LOVES taking bites from the Sch sleeve, and pretty much gags on it.

I think the key is correct early bite development. The helper/trainer has to use techniques that get the dog to take full/deep bites even when working on leg sleeves. It obviously helps immensely in schutzhund, but will also help in FR against the harder/tougher decoys who are going to do anything they can to shake the dog off the bite.

Scott,
As a former K-9 handler myself, I agree that there are many dogs doing patrol work in the U.S. that are more sport than real.
I think your idea about a PSP type evaluation for breeding is spot on and would be a great benefit here in the U.S. A lot of us have discussed that very idea in the past.

We have a USPCA cert here in Tallahassee in two weeks, this will be different for me since I'm observing instead of trying to cert. a dog. As the ASR trial is fresh in my mind, I'll be joting down notes for the compare and contrast list that I'm making.

And remember, I've commented twice now that I thought an ASR titled dog could be finished up with about two weeks of additional training and make an good entry level patrol dog. Your observation about the similarity between the Patrol/Utitlty Dog cert. and the ASR requirements shows me that you're paying attention <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Scott, I've done SchH for over 20 years now. I'll stand by my statement that 85% of SchH titled dogs could not pass an ASR trial.
I hope you get a chance to observe an ASR trial eventually.

If I may....
Admittedly, I have not seen a PSA trial in person so I cannot speak intelligently about the program, but as a person who competes in both French Ring, and ASR, AND is a former MWD Handler who has seen many USPCA certs allow me to offer the following opinions.

One cannot reasonably compare French Ring to the 'reality' programs such as ASR or Police K9. The main difference, to me, is in the training and mindset instilled in the dog. In French Ring, we do everything possible to build the confidence of the dog and to make it realize that it is a GAME, that the decoy is a 'partner' not an adversary. Yes, the decoys beat hell out of the dogs with the baton at the upper levels, but a dog with solid nerves can withstand just about anything if it KNOWS it is not going to be truly hurt, and that it is playing a rough game with it's buddy, and that it must remain clear-headed enough to respond INSTANTLY to handler direction.

Comparatively for ASR we try to instill in the dog the idea that things are more for real. Otherwise, we would not be able to have the Civil displays and hiddensleeve/muzzlework necessary to succeed in the program, as well as be able to successfully engage a 'badguy' on a slick floor or in the deep woods.

I know many dogs in French Ring (and other 'sports') that are absolutely for real, but the nature of the training does not focus on these attributes, and even seeks to tone down those tendencies to keep the dog clear-headed and SAFE on the trial field.

Our own dogs sometimes have a difficult time on the FR trial field (if they are training for ASR as well), because they do not view the activity as a game, but tend to take things seriously. It costs big points in slow outs, as that is the nature of the program. Though we have successfully titled individual dogs in both sports, we don't tend to mix the training for each with a single dog, but train individual dogs for the different activities.

As Will has so eloquently stated, many 'sport' dogs probably would not be able to succeed in ASR at the upper levels. Not because they are not good dogs, but because most dogs trained for the traditional sports are generally not prepared for the intensity of the decoy work, or possibly don't have enough civil/fight drive necessary to complete some of the scenarios, such as engaging an unsuited adversary.

I disagree that most ASR dogs could easily pass a USPCA etc...type test, unless the trainer/handler has prepared the dog more intensively/technically for the search portions of the program (my own ASR 2 dog included, and she WAS a working Police K9). Unfortunately, I have also see way too many dogs working on the streets that wouldn't get past Entry Level in ASR.

I love the challenge of French Ring for the precision control that is required to even pass, let alone be competitive. I like ASR for the qualities in the dog that the program seeks to test, and believe that as a 'sport' (don't believe everything you hear, folks. If it's got points and trophies, it's a sport <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), it's the one that gets closest to truly testing the character of the dog for professional applications.

Happy and SAFE Training,
Scott

Scott, I understand the concept of teaching the dog that the decoy is a partner. Is it possible given a lot training and exposure to scenarious to instil this same attitude in the dog when training for these protection sports? (PSA,ASR)I am asking because my only exposure has been the short video clips that I have seen on various sites.

As it relates to the USPCA I believe the aggression test for the PD1 is awfully watered down. Having decoyed for many teams (ten years ago) it seemed very much like a game. As a decoy I knew the dogs and what was necessary to make them look their best. One handler didn't want me to drop the gun under the apprehension under gunfire because he was afraid that his dog would go for the gun (ouch). Most of this was due to poor preparation and training but given what I know now these dogs were weak. They scored well because they knew the game. I'd really like to see the dogs tested and not by a known decoy. It's possible for the dog to not go into defense. In my mind the decoy should "put something on the dog". I'm not diagreeing with you just putting my own slant on it. From what I've seen of the protection sports the dogs are being tested.

Originally posted by Ron Bryant:
Ive been to both. I belong to a P>S>A> club.
Any SchH titled dog that will bite a hidden sleeve can get a PSA1 title.
Very few SchH dogs could pass a FR1 test with out a lot more training. Both FR and PSA use bite suites as apposed to a sleeve.
Ron I disagree from the standpoint that PSA puts a heck of a lot of pressure on the dogs.

Dogs with weaker nerve, and/or nerve 'issues' can be taught the SchH routine as an OB routine. The weaker nerve dogs will not pass in the PSA.

SchH to me is more to show the ability of the trainer/handler - PSA tests the dog itself more.

I JUST woke up.. so my thoughts are still asleep - I will reply to this late.. and hopefully make more sense LOL

 Quote:

Scott, I understand the concept of teaching the dog that the decoy is a partner. Is it possible given a lot training and exposure to scenarious to instil this same attitude in the dog when training for these protection sports? (PSA,ASR)I am asking because my only exposure has been the short video clips that I have seen on various sites.

I suppose it's possible, Howard. But to me, it defeats the purpose of the program. The whole premise behind the program (again, I'm speaking of ASR, as I have no first-hand experience of PSA) is to test the suitability of an individual dog for 'practical' applications, i.e., real-life. It would probably work at the lower levels, but not much beyond that.

Above Level 1, if the dog perceives the decoy as a partner or playmate, it will, in no way (IMO) be prepared for the extreme pressure applied to it by the trial decoy. I'm not a very 'imposing' type of person, but even I've run dogs out of the building that came in to play with 'the guy in the suit'. The dog must be willing/able to fight, not just bite. There is a trainer that frequents this board that some dogs would not even engage simply due to the 'presence' he has on the trial field.

I can't speak very intelligently about the state of USPCA, NAPWDA certs/trials today, as it's been 6 or 7 years since I've been to one. However when I was active in that genre (more years ago than I care to admit in public <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> , the apprehension scenarios were no where near as difficult 'pressure' wise as most good trainers present in their training sessions, let alone a trial situation where the gloves come off.

As you mentioned it seemed more like the decoys were trying to 'help' the dog, rather than 'test' the dog. But that may be just my own limited perspective as to what I was seeing. I know, though, that I had a few MWD's that, while SUPER detector dogs and wonderful partners, would have turned tail and left me hanging if a situation got too ugly. Glad I never had to find out.

Happy and SAFE Training,
Scott

Scott,
Region I Patrol & Detector Dog Certification here in Tallahassee from March 20 - March 24th, 2004.

PM me if you're interested in observing.....or maybe bringing your bite suit!

Thanks, Will.
Check your PM's

Happy and SAFE Training,
Scott

It seems that there are some people that are in PSA that are on Eds most wanted list or hall of shame. Is this what I have to look forward to or are there good people in PSA. I would like to get involved but this does worry me. I know that there are more than one side to every story but it seems that when more than one pops up in a list like that it does start to worry me. should I worry or should I not worry. there are bad apples in every aspect of the dog world and I should let it slide. Is this how i should handle things? And should i just go ahead and get involved in PSA? Just put my head down, mind my own biz and do my own thing? or is it worth it?

Dave