Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Frawley:
Orv - I am sorry but you are 100% wrong. There is NO EXPERIENCE TOP TRAINER anywhere - not in the United States, not in Germany, not in Europe that can work a young dog in defense and have it be a beneficial experience. Please do not allow these so called GURUS of training to bull shit you into believing this.

I'm the last person to advocate working a young dog in defense, but a young dog can be worked in defense. We have all seen young puppies bark at strangers in their yard, and when the stranger is at a distance the some puppies will even come forward barking (Defensively). If the stranger were to run off at that point, that will be a positive experience for the puppy. On the other hand if the stranger were to close the distance to the point that the puppy backed up that would be a bad experience for the puppy. Any time a dog goes into defense drive the experience can be good or bad.

I agree that it is not a good thing to "force" a dog into defense. But even at very young ages some dogs are more prone to use their defense drives, and once the dogs uses that drive the situation will dictate if the experience is positive or negative. Noting is always 100% right or wrong, each situation is different, each dog is different.

Lee - we all know the old saying that no one will ever get two dog trainers to agree on anything - well I don't agree with putting 6 months old dogs on a helper who is using a whip. Thats too young no matter who is doing the helper work. I know its done. I also know its wrong. Those that do it risk too much for little to no benefit.

Handlers should be teaching thier own dogs to play and work in prey at this age. They should be working their dogs 2 or 3 times a day themselves - they can take them out to the club and doging their play work there but they should not be having a helper work their dog. Yes the dog will bark and if its a nice dog it will bite in prey - but there are better ways to train young dogs.

Orv,
"We have all seen young puppies bark at strangers in their yard, and when the stranger is at a distance the some puppies will even come forward barking (Defensively)."

I am not sure that this is going to be defensive all the time. Especialy if the puppy is with other dogs. We have 2 other dogs and a puppy that is starting to mature. When the other dogs bark, she barks. She has had no idea what she is barking at. This is demonstrated by the fact that if the other dogs were not here, she didn't bark at the exact same stimulus. Part of how I know that she has (finally) started to mature is that she is now begining to bark as a defense of the property. It is also being strongly demonstrated in her level of confidence and "strength" in her protection work. With this dog it was almost like a switch was thrown about a month or so ago.

Not all barking is based on a "defensive" attitude on the part of the dog. A good example of this is shown on Ed's tape for bite training puppies. There is a Mal(?) shown in the begining stages of working with a helper that is barking strongly at the helper to get movement from the helper. It really looks good if you don't notice that the dog is also "play bowing" while he does it. This is the reason that good helper work is so hard to find. The helper can change the drive the dog is in based on what they do. Part of it has to do with the dog and how they are raised. With my pup if you hit or knee her on the chest it stimulates the prey drive, but if you stare at her it stimulates defensive behaviors.

There is a reason that in the "old days" we didn't start a dog until it was 1 1/2 to 2 years old. Defense was used and starting with a dog that hadn't matured would create huge problems and many dogs were ruined because they were pushed too hard too soon.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:

I am not sure that this is going to be defensive all the time. ... Part of how I know that she has (finally) started to mature is that she is now begining to bark as a defense of the property. It is also being strongly demonstrated in her level of confidence and "strength" in her protection work. With this dog it was almost like a switch was thrown about a month or so ago.

Not all barking is based on a "defensive" attitude on the part of the dog.

I never implied that all bark was defense. But "SOME" very young puppies will go into defense, and some will not with the very same stimuli (a stranger approaching). However, as you mentioned above it does occur in the manner you describe. Some dogs never develope those drives and all strangers are precieved as a friend. Some puppies exhibit that behavoir at 8 weeks old. Each dog is different.

The point I was making from the beginning was that as a rule of thumb I would agree that a young dog should not be worked in defense; however, you can say that is the case 100% of the time there are exceptions. There are trainers that use methods to train young dogs in defense, and do so in a positive manner. It all depends on the dog.

this might drive the topic a little away, but i think this is appropriate.

how do i tell when its time to change from prey work to defense work. Ok, i have to wait until the dog matures, but how can i tell this happened? also, what is the difference between defense training and prey training? only intensity?
thank you all

It all depends on the dog.

Nope. It all depends on the perception of the observer. What one calls “positive advancement” because the dog gave a similar or same response points to a lack of understanding about whole picture of working drives within the dog.

It is not a slam on you or a trainer who thinks they can actually manipulate defense in a puppy and get a better result then if they waited longer.

I should clarify that the defense work I am talking about is one that illicit a defense “fear” motivated response. Good trainers and helpers should build confidence by exposure and this has more to do with subtle maneuverings that are well placed while working in prey. Proximity has, by in large, a greater effects on the dog then most people understand. This area and the manipulation of the distance between the dog and the agitator/helper is a buffer that can be used to increase or decrease the pressures in a novice or young dog/pup.

The fence/crate/car often does bolster the dog. People observing this see it as an intensity builder. It may have some merit (in time) as the dog can be conditioned to his response in the same/similar environment and so can be a tool to use in some cases where the dog lacks the natural drives. This is hardly witnessed by those who practice stressing the young dog in this fashion because by doing so they will never know how the dog would have been had they not don it. Simply their good dog could have been even better had they waited but they will never know it. On the other hand we see many potentially good dogs ruined or in the very least disrupted enough that we cannot recover the potential of the animal and other drives because of the sensitivity threshold created in the foundation of the drive building. Sharp scary response in not the response I want I want confident intense fire with desire that is controlled and focused. If think you cannot get this in the dog then you are probably right.

One of my greatest irks are trainers and other self examined experts who say. “Do it this way because it is tried and true.” Maybe they have seen it work with some dogs so it must be right. Defense work is no different.

All too common, average dog owner, looking for a their idea of defense work and wanting to believe their dog “has what it takes”, is snowed by limited dog professionals trying to make a buck. They propel the idea that because they can get a dog to bark, act scary, and get finally get him or her on a bite-sleeve. This (in their estimation) must mean they know all there is to know about manipulation of drives and they are, in fact, as skillful as their seminar advertising claims.

It should be obvious that no one knows the full scope of the dog’s mind and how drives work exactly, because there is variance based on the individuals temperament and dominating internal motivator that are biologically connected o dog evolution and survival. Still, THERE ARE several consistent “rocks” that pave the correct road one should take in getting the best out of a dog.

Knowing about a technique without basing that “knowledge” with true reasons found within the dog mind; that paved road, will often be the road that drops off from reality and into fantasyland were we all can pretend the dog is better for our “boot-camp” tactics when he was a puppy.

Remember: People tend to get the dog they deserve. If you get the dog you want out of early defense drive conditioning then count you’re yourself lucky that you carry low-end "junk-yard" standards.

The answer to my original post has been answered in a very detailed way and my point was not to suggest that working a young dog in defense was a good ides but more to do with the 'natural' drive of any given dog in alerting to noises, strangers the postman, a strange dog even somewhere near their 'territory!! Are these young dogs working in defense drive of their own accord and can this early evidence of a defensive drive (if it is)be channeled in a totally safe organised way??

I look forward to your comments

Cheers

Mark,

In puppies it isn't going to be defense. It is more likely going to be a prey based thing. A pup just doesn't have the temperament for dealing with the stress of defense. If anything if it is put in a defensive situation it is going to run away.

There is another point to this. If you are using behaviors on the part of the agitator that may elicit defense brhavior later, and then converting back to prey, the best thing that you are going to teach the dog is that the proper reaction to the agitator is a prey behavior. This may lead to bigger problems later in getting real defense out of the dog. You will have taught the dog that the proper response is prey behaviors. The other end of the spectrum is that you could scare the dog to the point that it won't work out at all. Causing a fright before the dog is ready to deal with it will potentialy create a dog that is in constant fear when working. In this case in a real situation the dog is more likely to run than stand and fight.

Originally posted by Mark Holloway:
... the 'natural' drive of any given dog in alerting to noises, strangers the postman, a strange dog even somewhere near their 'territory!! Are these young dogs working in defense drive of their own accord and can this early evidence of a defensive drive (if it is)be channeled in a totally safe organised way??

Cheers Prey or Defense is a behavior caused by a stimuli. Some dogs will be stimulated into defense drive by the Postman, some will not. The dogs that are stimulated into defense drive have a lower condifence level, they precieve the Postman to be a possible threat. On the other hand another dog could see the Postman as another person to play with. It has to do with the dog's preception of the stimuli.

If a dog is triggered into Defense there are several ways the dog could react, aggressive, submissive, or flee. The pressure from the stimuli will have alot to do with how the dog react, and it only takes a small difference to have a dog go from agressive to submissive or flight. And that difference is extremely smaller the younger the dog.

Can it be channeled? Of course it can. But to channel it the dog needs confidence. With age and a lot of prey work the dogs gains confidence first in his own power, and then is knowing he has won time after time with the prey object. Dogs have a keen sense of their size, and physical ability in relation to the helper. In doing prey work we are convincing them that they are even stronger. For example when the helper slips the sleeve it is not because the dog is actually strong enough to take it from the helper. These artifical wins create a confidence level in the dog, that prepares him to stay in an aggressive behavior when in defense drive.

Some dogs will go into defense much easier than others. What is important is to understand, with these dogs you must be more protective of them. The young puppy that stands and barks strongly at at strange in the distance will be much more likely to go into avoidance on the training field verses the puppy that runs toward the stranger wanting to be petted. Dogs that are more apt to work in prey have a huge forgiveness factor for the helper. However, dogs that are quick to go into defense have a small margin of error on the helper's presentation. What would not be seen as defensive movements by the prey dog, will be seen as a threat by the dog that goes into defense quickly. Any overpowering helper work to this dog could create behaviors unwanted.

Back to your question, not only can it be channeled, it must be channeled.

Orv wrote
The young puppy that stands and barks strongly at at strange in the distance will be much more likely to go into avoidance on the training field verses the puppy that runs toward the stranger wanting to be petted. Dogs that are more apt to work in prey have a huge forgiveness factor for the helper.

Don's reply, I may be wrong but I'm interpeting by
reading your reply and it seems that you see, a defense drive dog as a weaker dog. I think in your statement of above that if both pups foundation work is done properly that both dogs will turn out ok, one maybe a little sharper then the other. But the overly friendly pup may not have any drive to start foundation work, at least the pup that alerts to strange things can be channeled into a drive. We have all seen the dog or puppy so friendly that it takes forever if not ever to get a rise out of him.

If the alert pup foundation is built, prey, defense and fight drive, I maintain that he would probably be a better prospect then the overly friendly pup, who to me is a question mark. A pup should be alert and inquistive, not just pet me hold me, hug me. I like a puppy (6-9 months) that wants me to pet him but is a little aloof with others. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />