Todd I know what you are saying and as two professionals go I don’t disagree with you. But the context of that discussion was not helpful. It looked more like a Jerry Springer show. If professionals are going to gain enough respect to send the hard answer in a way it can be digested then it is not about protection of feelings. It is about professional bearing. Maybe the “Best” answer is to put the dog down and certainly I recommend it when it is warranted. Yet, cases of dogs being unredeemable are few and I cannot tell if this dog is one of them or not without seen it. What is actually seen by someone knowing what he or she is looking at, as you know, is quite a bit different.

I have read the former post and I am not offering any defense to a person who fails to take good advice but the posting did nothing for the next new dog owner person who may think the forum has turned into nothing but a bunch of hen eating feral dogs looking at pack order amongst themselves over helping Jo Public who has by misfortune just acquired the next Sir Munch-A-Lot.

So to me the only effective and helpful answer would have been to layout the realities and consequences of failing to heed the advice. Advice that is qualified not vilified. If the post was recycled the issue of putting the dog down could have been addressed would have been a real option. Instead, it was a siege that caused only one option to be truly considered. Not listening to anyone.

The problem is we can only go on whats posted. We in fact can't see the dog. We can only go on what has been written. The most important of which I believe is the terminology used. As this gives tremendous insight as to the thought pattern of the owner. Also, based on past practices. How many bite cases. How many times has been warned.

Past stupidity...

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Dog was in a down/stay was paying no attention to the women who was walking toward her home. No growling, snarling, hair on end or prolonged eye contact.
Next thing you know he exploded out of his down, ripped the leash right out of my hand and went into full attack mode.

Based on past history, why was the dog in this position? Taking into account all the facts that we have at hand...only one conclusion can be come to. The thing about it though, is several options were given before hand. In other threads...apparently other forums although Linda denies this. When you block all avenues except one there is only one direction you can go. In this case I will stand by my questions. Which of course never got answered. Maybe I am a little sarcastic sometimes...however ya gotta admit I bring up valid points and never a dull read... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

A pet owner that's posts here cruising for the answer they are looking for, and *only* that answer is wasting their time and all of our time.

Professional bearing might break down if multiple people with knowledge post good suggestions multiple times and some bonehead still doesn't heed the advice - resulting in a bite - and then said bonehead posts the results here. Trainers here might show a bit of frustration with serial stupidity. I know that I sure do.

And the option of "not listening to anyone" was made by the bonehead in question long before she posted here. She has already posted similar problems on other boards and recieved good advice, like wearing a muzzle when outdoors- and chose to ignore this. I was contacted by a board moderator from that board after Linda's 1st post here. She accurately predicted the course of Linda's actions here. Sadly.... stupidity is predictable. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think we overall as a group give pretty good advice for many situations. A person can get multiple opinions for free by posting here. It gives us as trainers a chance to apply problem solving skills and maybe learn something ourselves. But long posts where an owner can not see that *they* are the problem, more so then the dog that they own, is a waste of bandwidth. I hope these type posts are closed by mods more quickly in the future.

When we look at the very first post and another woman is a moderator on another forum came with her. I don’t give credit to either of them and fact a person is a moderator of a forum means nothing to me. Maybe they don’t like each other and this is the motivation behind the slam dance. We don’t know. What is interesting is how a few jumped fast on the posting with more attitude then apparent ability or in some cases, a desire to deal at another level. The predictability is how the same gets the same I think.

If a person's concern is truly about protecting the public and promoting responsible dog ownership then what is the purpose of posting in pathetically aggressive way. To some it shows weakness and beggs the question of what a person really knows.

What does it produce? A few chuckles from chuckles heads maybe. (I must admit I am among them at times.) Still, the whole "Linda and Her Dogs" post could have and should have been better and not a repeat of another forum based on the caliber of the trainers found here on Leerburg.

Will, I agree with what you wrote. Will wrote:

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A pet owner that's posts here cruising for the answer they are looking for, and *only* that answer is wasting their time and all of our time.

Sometimes being REALISTIC isn't for EVERYONE!!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What ticks me off about this whole "Linda" issue is that none of us knows her, none of us has seen her dog, and yet, without an in person evaluation, some are assuming that they have the answer. Now, maybe you've seen enough dogs in your career that you don't think you need to see the dog to know what's going on. I am not a professional trainer, nor am I a very good trainer, but any trainer who would not want an in person evaluation, complete with detailed questionnaire and a physical exam including a blood panel, before starting me on a training plan for my dog, would not get my business, and I certainly would not take advice on a serious aggression issue over the *internet*. So I can't really blame her for not taking all of the "great advice" she has recieved. Perhaps, as I would do, she is listening to her *trainer*, and is only posting on the forum to get ideas and insight, not neccessarily a training plan for her dog.

Has the person in question been defensive? You bet. I would be, too, if someone were to *follow* me from another forum and publicly attack me like someone did in this case. I think lower of that person than I do of her, since we're all being honest here; that was pretty low class.

I am not defending her; obviously she has made some poor choices and deserves *some* criticism (I think she also deserves some positive reinforcement for putting her dog down, but she got attacked instead). But I do think it's silly for professionals with so much experience to be getting caught up in a pi$$ing match over a person that they have never met and a dog that they have never seen. If this person is a troll, then they have accomplished what trolls usually set out to do; get everyone arguing amongst themselves while the troll sits back and laughs. If she is for real, then I question whether or not she has actually been helped here. If she is just "stupid", then how is arguing amongst ourselves and personally attacking her going to do anything except make her even more defensive?

I wasn't going to contribute to this, but I got up on the wrong side of the bed today and am feeling brave at the moment......bravery fading, better hit "add reply" before I chicken out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have a simple way of looking at rescue dogs.

There are so many dogs put down every year, every DAY in this country, that I say why waste time with a dog that isn't perfectly happy and a great pet prospect?

Why bother with a dog that has "issues" while millions of great dogs, without "issues" get the needle?

Cut your losses, and save a dog that deserves it. One that isn't going to be living the rest of his life with some kind of sick spook disease. . .with the VERY REAL potential to bite human beings.

The poster of that thread was involved in earier threads where she was given the advice to keep her dog under control and out of public. She was told to seek advice from someone that understands problem dogs. . .I don't think she did any of those things.

She couldn't even hold the leash, she couldn't spot the signs of aggression, she couldn't control the dog. . .bad things happened.

From the little I read, she did the right thing and put that dog down. Sorry for her, but happy for her neighbors. I hope she tries to find another dog to save, one that can fit her personality strengths. . .and weaknesses.

I don't think telling someone, even over the internet, that putting a problem dog down is bad advice. (especially if they have problems understanding what is going on) If they can't handle the dog, if they can't have 100% control of the dog 100% of the time, if they can't learn very quickly to read that dog, then the spooky fear biter dog needs to be given to someone that can deal with it (waste of time IMO), or Cujo needs to be sent along his merry cosmic way.

Then you can go down to your local shelter and pick up one of those great bouncy lab mixes that loves everything and everybody, but has too much energy (because he's 12 months old) and pees on the carpet. . .those things can be fixed easily.

Save a life that matters, one that has a good chance at a happy existence. One that isn't going to tear holes in a child. . .scar him for life or END his life. Too many kids are hurt every year.

Ice the spooks and snappers, they are not worth the air, food, and space they suck up.

My advice to people with these problems? Get rid of the dog any way you can, don't even bother with them. Go down and find a nice dog at the shelter. . .there are 5 or 6 of them poisoned every day.

If you dont want to listen to the advice, then why ask for it?
I agree that it is a hard decision to make putting the dog down, but from her other posts I read she received good advice from people,then she refused to listen.
I can understand why people are upset, the woman was given advice, she argued about it and said that HER TRAINER gave her different advice and she would follow that, then she posts about how the dog attacked someone and had to be put down.
She has said on numerous posts that she has another biter.
After being given advice, not listening and having her dog bite someone and then posting about it, why should she not be attacked?
Sometimes the truth hurts.

Like I said I have no problem advising a client to send a dog to Kavorkian.

Do they put the dog down when I tell them to? Yep. Q. Why? A. Because I took the time to explain it to them and built trust enough to send the hard answer and I expect to get the message through.

The format of the hard answer was a waste of time because respect was not obtained if anything people made their statements based on hearsay and conjecture of another poster who by all accounts, might be as loopy and the person in question. No doubt mistakes were made and I have no reason to believe more mistakes could be made in the future with the wrong dog and the wrong owner.

Simply, Linda could be killing her dog right now for us if a new direction and formatting of the hard answer was posted and not the cheap and easy sound "bites".

Seems crazy and the world is clearly surreal...

The idea of posting death warrants without evaluating the dog in person no matter what they have posted about the situation is just ineffectual. Understand I agree there are WAY too many good dogs to keep any bad ones breathing. But people are people and man handling every poster because you can would make Leerburg a combat zone with the casualties high in all sections.

My concern has less to do with this particular person and their issues, and more to do with the conduct of professionals. I think if it's your opinion that the dog be put down, fine. But I see no need to get nasty about it.

BTW, I used to be the moderator for a dog training forum (that no longer exists), and I had a problem poster who ended up coming over here and being a problem here (some of the older members here will remember her). I did not publicly attack her, but merely sent Ed a private email warning him about this person and what had gone on over on my forum. She was eventually banned from posting here when Ed got fed up with her cr@p.