So you do bandaid work to try and cover up the problem, hoping that the dog will change instead of actively trying to teach the dog?

For example, if my dog bites me you would tell me not to put the dog in that position again vs. a trainer that would use obedience training to manipulate pack rank.

 Quote:

Originally posted by kelton sweet:
In all of my cases, I am experimenting.

So you offer overpriced common sense? You try to put together a solution by the seat of your pants instead of basing it on what has worked in previous situations? I'm more of the engineered solution type <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . The solution can and should be modified, but a consistent plan is always needed from the beginning. Sometimes waiting and observing can be dangerous.

Maybe this is how I should pay for college <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . Can't be any harder than clicker training my cat.

Hey Kelton,
check you pm's!

>>>>Will writes:
Your comment about the dog being choked out for the bite - still not clear, was the owner bitten? - and your reaction to it is very telling from our standpoint, by the way.<<<

The dog actually bit the decoy in the chest -on his shirt actually- after "outing" from the sleeve. The dog didn't out very easily from that spot. The dog was then suspended from his neck until his tongue was hanging limp from the side of his mouth. Not pretty! OK, so what reaction is it that you are saying is "telling" and in what way is it telling? I didn't know that I gave a reaction...was just observing.

I'm not naive about this sort of situation, but I hope you realize that I am not accusing you or anyone here of such a practice.

>>>Will writes: However, I still question just how much a Special Ed teacher ...understands the art - *art*..not science, there's a difference - of dog training.<<<

I have worked as an autistic teacher, but no longer. I am a working behavior analyst consulting with staff regarding the toughest behavior disorders in my county. It's a huge school system here, so there is a lot of work to be done!

You'll have to define your understanding of "art" and "science" if you'd like me to speak to that.

I apply the basic principles of behavior science regardless of which species is in front of me. Just as a chemist would apply principles/practices of chemistry regardless of the particular chemical solution. There are pragmatic concerns, of course. Like, the best way to offer a hard biting dog a treat such that my finger tips don't get wounded....this sort of issue is not addressed in the experimental analysis of behavior.....and it takes practice and time in order to acquire the motor skills and timing required in day to day training sessions. I have had experience with this, but not as much as someone who is working with multiple dogs on a daily basis. Of course...there is only so much time in a day.

>>>>Will writes: Medicine is still considered an art because it treats individuals. A cook book style of treatment doesn't work for all humans, because all humans differ somewhat - hence the medical "arts" as opposed to science.<<<

I am not familiar with medical arts or that medicine is considered an art. As stated earlier, I have nothing to do with 'cookbooks'...that would not be "science"....at best, it could be considered 'technology' -the application of science-. Science is simply an objective manner of finding things out. There are loftier definitions, but that might get beyond the scope of this forum.


>>>>Will writes: Dogs, like people are still individuals. And within a set of individuals is a norm, but in groups, individuals always fall out of the norm, on both sides of a bell shaped curve..<<<

Sure. Behaviorist have huge problems with attempts at grouping subjects into 'averages' or whatever. That's for sociologists and psychologists. There is plenty of behavioral science books which spend great amounts of time explaining the error of "group statistics". That group stuff just isn't terribly helpful. I'm with you there....so is every other behaviorist.

>>>>Will writes: That's my "problem", as you call it, with behavioral science - it comes too close to being a psuedo-science. It's not 100% , and when things are not 100%, they're not a science - they're an art.<<<<

I'm thinking that you aren't exactly hip as to what the experimental analysis of behavior -EAB- or applied behavior analysis -ABA- really is. To bring up issues with "groups" or questioning the "science" is hard to address because it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the field...I don't know where to start. I will say this. The thing that bothers many psychologists, philosophers, sociologists and so on THE MOST is the issue of "too much adherence to a rigorous scientific approach"! ...and a complete lack of group studies! People get downright pissed as behaviorist insists that we use the extreme caution required of basic science....no pontificating, philosophizing or jumping to "obvious' conclusions is allowed....it's tedious, but these are the very things that many people DON"T like about behavioral science! There is a huge rift between psychology and behavioral science, many believe that behavioral science belongs in the Biology department. Still others don't believe that science is an appropriate medium to study humans -and many animals-.

I know that everyone can't know everything about every profession, so I am very used to the various stereotypic ways people have of characterizing what they think is involved in behavioral science. You can describe to me what is "not science" about behavioral science and perhaps we can talk about that if this forum permits.

I am perfectly happy to get bogged down in this sort of "science!" "not science!" debate, but I'm not sure if the owner of the forum would care to have it occur here. I don't know.


>>>>Will writes: And yes, the CBA/ certified behavioral analyst bothers me a bit also. You can take anybody with *any* type of 4 year degree....sounds like a made up title to make folks feel better about themselves. <<<

All I did was go to school, sit for the exam, and go to work. This certification is a requirement in order to do certain kinds of work. That's all it means to me, so I don't know how it would make someone feel. It's just a test I have to take to do the work.....I also have to take the drivers license test to drive. It's just a thing. Far more people fail the CBA test, though. Even though I hear folks say that the CBA test is tough, I actually thought is was fairly breezy.

In my courses, I find that many psychologists or similar professions are in my class. They too, were trying to fullfill requirements to sit for the exam. Ultimately, half the students drop out due to the tedious aspects of the science...sometimes more than half. I believe that they had some assumptions about the field before jumping in. I don't think I'm all that bright, but I am insanely interested in this subject matter....so studying and learning this stuff isn't such a hassle. My interest in dog behavior as a kid initiated this path of interest for me, so I am forever indebted to that stray border collie I found in Mississippi as an 8 yr old kid. Man that dog was easy to train!...and sparked my interest.


>>>Will writes: If I had a child with behavioral problems, I'll stick with an MD who has a lot more options for treatment.<<<

All of the clients I see are prescribed to me by an MD/Psychologists or Pyschiatrists. I suppose you could say that behavior analysis is part of the arsenal of options available to an MD.

>>>>Will writes: But the only animal behaviorist that I thought actually deserved the title - B.S. in zoology, MS. in something closely related - <<<

Those fields are fascinating, but she probably had to do some sort of study regarding behavior modification in some fashion. Zoology and even Ethology, although they make mention of some aspects of behavior -and behavior change-, they aren't particularly concerned with the systematic environmental manipulations of a behaviorist. They are just different fields, and aren't in opposition or anything like that.

Wow, I can see my star ratings drop like a rock! That's fine, but I sure wish the folks who bother to make those changes would fess up AND articulate clearly -without insults- the nature of their problem. Otherwise, it's just another example of what I call "internet bravado"....bravery supplied by the anonymity of the net. Personally, I have never bothered to adjust anyone's "stars", and never will. I think it's sorta funny though, so I'll keep it visable.

I have received a number of personal e-mails from folks on this forum that are requesting information, but don't want to post questions/comments publicly for fear of getting crapped on by forum members. I know what they mean, but I hereby request that they "out" themselves! This is the internet and it's full of 'all kinds'....so take your bruises and don't worry about it.

As for me, I think you'll find that I am consistently polite and take no pleasure in making someone feel dumb or worthless.

Kelton,
I can see that getting a straight answer out of you would be very difficult - so we can discuss this further someday in PM, if either of us wanted to, as not to waste the bandwidth of the forum's owner.

If you're worried about your rating, oh well, that's life. And why are you mentioning it and then saying it doesn't bother you? It obviously does, or else you wouldn't mention it.

My rating drops every time I point out that someone is unethical ,or breeding a dog that they shouldn't, or something like that. You just learn to live with it.
However, I'm not so insecure that I need to berate the people that post star ratings for their "internet bravado", as you have done.

>>Lauren writes: So you offer overpriced common sense? <<<

You'd have to ask my clients/parents about the value of my service. However, judging by the fact that I turn away a huge amount of work due to the overwhelming need for this service, I would say that it's not as "common" sense as we might think. If you have ever worked with behavior problems in dogs -or kids or whatever-, you too would see that this is, apparently not such a "common sense" deal at all! If it were common sense, I would be out of work.


>>>Lauren writes: You try to put together a solution by the seat of your pants instead of basing it on what has worked in previous situations? I'm more of the engineered solution type <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . <<<

Engineers have to check things over before designing a solution....measure stuff and so on. I think many dog trainers do as well. Perhaps I work by the seat of my pants, but let me tell ya that this particular "seat" has sat and studied quite a bit -and taken some bites, too!-. Anyway, it's nearly impossible not to draw upon what has worked in the past -or what one has learned in school-.

>>>>Maybe this is how I should pay for college <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . Can't be any harder than clicker training my cat.<<<<

Maybe not! I say, "go for it"....behavior analysts are in high demand. Take the classes and pass the exam and you can set your own hours around school! People with reasonable experience in dog training are at a distinct advantage to those who haven't had such experience. If you take the necessary courses you'll see what I mean!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Will, I don't see a question. So it's hard to give a straight answer!


>>>Will writes: If you're worried about your rating, oh well, that's life. And why are you mentioning it and then saying it doesn't bother you? <<<

Nah, I'm just taking note of it as a curiosity. Why would it bother me?


>>>Will writes: However, I'm not so insecure that I need to berate the people that post star ratings for their "internet bravado", as you have done. <<<

Berate? Gosh, not sure how to respond to that!

what's with all the hostility towards behavior analysis? like it or not, anyone who trains a dog to do anything is teaching according to principles, whether they know what those principles are or not. many top schutzhund trainers have read a lot of learning theory and apply it: for example, debbie zappia, ivan balabanov, walter kreipl, elmar mannes, to name a few. at a flinks seminar i asked bernhard about learning theory and he explained that he has read plenty but doesn't use the terms in his seminars because he doesn't want to talk in scientific terms, although he can.
this is a forum dedicated to sharing ideas about dog training, correct? i for one am very interested in hearing from kelton how the theories of learning theory can be applied to behaviors i need to train for schutzhund...

Ok, so take note of the original post at the top of this discussion. Besides the first bite, not a single response has had anything to do with that subject other than suspicion of the field of study with no specific critique.

I have responded at length, but it would be very cool if we could maybe discuss something specific about the science itself.

If you don't like or don't trust this field of study. OK. But try to discuss something specific about the error of behavior analysis. If you feel that I don't know something, you might be right!!! but then describe something specific about my ignorance. It's understandable that it is easier and maybe more fun to make sweeping accusations or inuendo, but it is more useful to be specific!

Again, check the original post at the top of this forum. I am not attempting to preach about something or make claims of being an ultimate trainer.....so holster your arms....I am simply asking if there are those who have an interest in this field of study! If so, maybe we can discuss it and discuss it with relation to dog behavior/training.

The somewhat less-than-pleasant reactions to my original post are interesting, but that is another subject all together!

That's all. eeeeasy boy

Kelton,
As the person who originally threw out the first bite I agree that I'd like to see this thread get into more specific examples. I thought you latest post was very good........ up until the last section. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by kelton sweet:


The somewhat less-than-pleasant reactions to my original post are interesting, but that is another subject all together!

It seems almost seems like a "parting shot" and you should know, as a behaviorist, what type of response it would elicit. I commend you for trying to move the thread to get down to more specifics but I think it would be easier to build bridges if you left out these types of statements.