Chris,
I've investigated the top 20 dog training schools closely ( more closely than you might imagine, i.e., I've visited them, read their curriculum, spoke with and observed multiple graduates. Most of those schools viewed me as a prospective student, and by playing "dumb" I was able to learn a lot, most of which they would have preferred that I didn't learn ) and none of them produced a dog trainer worth spit, with the exception of the two schools whose names I posted above.

Have I checked out *every* school? Nope, you're correct there, but I'd wager my house as a bet that I've checked out more of these schools then ( and more closely, with a learned eye ) than anybody else. And there's an obvious trend that's easy to see - most of them are started/ run by strictly mid-level trainers ( or below ) with not a whole lot of real experience in dog training. But with a little fancy marketing, they can pull one over on the clueless, because really, only the *inexperienced* person goes to one of these schools. A dog trainer with just five or so years of experience gained in competing in a few dog sport venues and maybe taking a junior instructor position at a local AKC obedience club would laugh at the so-called curriculum of these schools.

Chris, I am not an employee of Leerburg, and I have no affiliation with either of those schools. They all have earned my recommendation by what I have seen first hand in the real world. No one at either school would likely know me from Adam, but I've watched their graduates succeed in a variety of dog training set ups, and they were well trained and knowledgeable.

Well, I can and do bag the "great marketers" when they seem to only exist as a crutch for the ill trained to pull one over on the uninformed. But that's just me. If you can join a scam organization like the APDT and get a "certification" with them by filling out an on-line application ( but you are not required to provide any proof that you actually know what you're doing but, hey, they get their hefty fee for providing you with a piece of paper ) , and then flash that so-called "certification" all over your website, it pretty much shows me that both the trainer in question and the bogus certifying organization are in on the scam. And who does it hurt? The uninformed consumer.

Is this discussion board a marketing tool? Sure. However, there is *no place* anywhere with this much high level free dog training information anywhere in the world.
The potential for getting bad information does exist here, but pretty much not from Ed's articles. Posters here with widely varying skill levels will give advice. Sometimes people will post in threads that they shouldn't be giving an opinion in ( due to lack of skill/ experience in that topic ) and one of the moderators will step in. I myself have posted a reminder along these lines several times, especially in threads that deal with a topic that has the potential to harm a human being.
This forum has helped more dog owners than any other site in the world, and there have been thousands of questions answered here by people that have never spent dime one on a Leerburg item. I can't think of a competitor than could make that claim.

And I agree with you, being a dog trainer is all about practice and experience. And that's the biggest failure of most dog training schools, people want to jump into being a dog trainer but can't or won't pay the dues that are involved with becoming one.

Just for the sake of discussion--

If one were to attend school at Tom Rose or Triple Crown--how much time overall do you think they would save over putting in lots of leg work over time to learn the trade (assuming they were fairly quick learners and invested much time into studying videos/books and practical application)?

I looked into West Virginia Canine College. They do not have a website, and their phone number was their fax number. No big deal though as they are 21/2 hours away from me-just like national k9.
I have to agree. i have learned more from this website and it's articles than anywhere else. Plus it's free which of course is a big advantage. The local Obedience Club here mostly trains with the "give her a cookie and she'll do what you want" attitude. They once hailed a trainer (cannot remember his name) as being such a good animal trainer in their opinion he could "get a whale to pee in a cup" by letting the animal *decide* to pee in the cup. Of course this scenario mostly likely could never happen, but the looks on the owners faces told me they went out and bought this saints books. I for one did not buy it because Xena being the hard dog she is would try to decide to whether or not she wanted to get me to pee in a cup.
So many people here have went to the local OB club and tried training their dogs, and it just didn't happen. They blamed themselves. But I find it hard to believe it is completely the owners fault. In the Puppy Classes, We were never taught ANYTHING about establishing the Alpha except to say to us "Let your dog know you are in charge." No ideas, tips, nothing, just telling us to do it. Well how do you do that when you have no instruction. Of course all these "trainers" went on and on about their "certifications", but after the puppy class, I was finished. I ran into my trainer when Xena was 4 months old. She told me she was a trainer, never showed me a certificate one, but she sure showed me how to establish that I was the Alpha and how to get her to heel and lay down and to recall. Never charged me either. But you can bet the OB club charged plenty of people. Now I know why they did....they rented the enclosed pavillion once a week and trained their dogs in agility.....and we the "wet behind the ear dog owners" paid their rent.

Ken, that's tough to say, buddy.
Some folks learn very well from tapes. I've been to seven Flinks seminars now, and there is inevitably a fairly new beginner attending who watched the tapes before hand and had literally mastered the concepts and physical moves required ( Melissa Mims from this board comes to mind - we were literally amazed at her handling skills at the last seminar. I wanted to both hug her and choke her at the same time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

Other folks need to learn in another way - a direct lecture, or one on one learning. Learning methods are as varied as the people being taught.....

LOL, Will <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll be watching my back for those 'hugs' at the next seminar! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I know what you mean--it was a pretty vague question. I guess I'm just trying to get a real *feel* for how much value there is in Tom Rose or Triple Crown.

-->Would you consider a recent graduate from either school to still be a "newb", or is the curriculum thorough enough to MAKE REAL TRAINERS.

On Flinks: I would love to see unedited video footage of his seminars. While the Drive/Focus tape is great...there's a few areas I wish were elaborated upon.

9000 dollars for 9 weeks! I´m glad I´m not living in the US if I wanted to get experience to work as a dog trainer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In Sweden there are a really good dogtraining education, 1 year with lots of work with different dogs and some of the best instructors available, all this for free if you are lucky enough to get into the school. I think this education is unique in the world. Passing such an education would really give you a lot of experience that is hard to get on such a short time otherwise. Don´t now if this education is open to foreigners thou, but it sure opens upp an intressting opurtunity to work with dogs around the world.

You can read a little about it from a person who have gone thru that education, click at "Trainerschool" at the following link,
http://www.fantasium.se/index_english.htm

In any disipline there is a vast difference between the theoretical and the practical (except, perhaps, theoretical physics, lol), dog training included. The goal should be a working knowledge of all aspects of dog training, which includes, but is not limited to:

breeds: their original purpose, temperment, limitations, breed specific instinctive drive, working capabilities, knowledge of bloodlines in working dogs.

Dog training theory: what is current, outdated, and why. What works and what doesn't and why. This includes going to seminars (or reading) of every disipline, even one your not currently working in. Even one you don't agree with. How to train a dog to be a seeing eye dog, seizure alert dogs, narc dogs, SAR, agility, purely positive, tracking, herding, earth dog events, lure coursing....you get the idea. How do they teach the dogs to do what they do? Usually, for the most sucessful, it is working with the dog's inate drives.

Problem dogs: aggression all types; fear related problems all types; the untrained dog/owner.

Dog learning theory: This is the most important, IMHO. How do dog's learn? How to make them learn faster? How do you 'read' a dog?

Human learning theory ('cause if your gonna be a dog trainer, most times, your training the owner, and people are a lot harder to train than dogs)

For me, this is what I would have under my belt before I would pay one dollar for a dog training school. Most of this info is available at the local library (or they can do an inter library loan and get it for you), and in various depths, the videos. But for the theory, the books are best. For the method, the videos are best.

Finally, again before I spent any money on a cert., I would use these principles and apply it to my own dog, and then volunteer at the shelter and train a whole bunch a dogs using the same principles; helps the dogs, a well trained dog is more likely to get adopted, and helps you, lots of new pupils with various temperments, training backgrounds.

Then, you are sure you have working knowledge of dog training theory. Then if you still feel you need it after all that, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I would look into the schools mentioned above. Or even see if you could do a 2 week modular based class on an area you have problems with. That way, you don't waste time and money on the little crap like reinforcment schedules, and can work on an area you have real problems in.

And the best advertisment for a trainer is their own dog. I cannot count how many times people have asked me about problems with their dog when I out training mine- "How come she looks at you all the time? my dog never does that. But she's so friendly, how did you stop her aggression problems? Are you a dog trainer? I have a problem with my dog, he pulls on the leash so much, how do I get him to stop?' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And I am not a professional dog trainer!


This is the level of learning, dedication and global knowledge I would look for in a trainer, not a piece of paper. Sorry this is long!

Ken,
I went to the Tom Rose school. I achieved Certified Master Trainer. I was just checking out the web site and it doesnt look like he is offering the certified master trainer progran right now. Probably because its to hard for most people to pass. The master trainer course comes after you complete the Profesional trainer course with high scores and being approved by Tom.Take a look at the Profesional course and the requirements. Do you think your gonna get those things accomplished on your own in the next 5 to 6 years ? When you go to the school you live on campus 7 days a week. You eat sleep drink and think nothing but dog training. And to top it off you have Tom Rose at your right hand to help and answer every question you could possibly come up with. To move onto the Master course after the Professional course just add a dog to do a Sch. 3 track, a Sch.3 obed routine, and every aspectphase of police dog training. Not theory but actually train a dog to do it, do it all. You dont go there and train 1 dog , you go there and train lots and lots of dogs.(and people).Now do you think your gonna get that done also in your spare time anytime in the next 7 to 8 years, while your going to work and living a regular life. A newbe? There are tons of people who have been training dogs for 20 years or most of their lives that still dont know what they are doing AND those same people will be glad to teach you how to do what they do. After coming out of the school Ive met lots of dog trainers that have been training forever and are just up in arms over the simplest things.
Most schools are a joke, Tom is not a joke. He was a major player in Sch. even being a sport in this country.
The school is something I wanted to do because I wanted to go straight to the source and really learn. I didnt want to spend 10 years to learn it wrong then right then wrong then right again.

As old as I am, I'd still got to Tom's school (If I had the bucks) and it's only 45 mins from me.