Aaron, are you working with a dog trainer/club?

Cause if you are trying to get 100% of your dog hints and recommendations from this site you are in trouble. We all have different backgrounds, goals and experience. And it sounds to me like this is the first puppy/dog you have ever raised.

To me, you have way too high standards/goals for an 8 month old BABY. Different people on your different topics have said that over and over and you seem to blow that off and not address it. If you were going to a good trainer, I think you would be able to put how well (or not) you pup is REALLY doing and into perspective. Seems like you are expecting a 'baby' to be fairly perfect and act like an adult dog. Additionally, it appears you have a high drive and motivated pup which would be a handful for ANY dog owner, let alone one who is not getting any professional assistance.

FIND A DOG CLUB/TRAINER and go with their recommendations. And/or if you don't like them, go to someone else.

As far as refusing to socialize your dog because you want him to do protection, you will end up with a dog that is protective because of FEAR rather than coming from a confident and secure place. I have 2 GSD's that I have socialized the bejeezers out of and the do not LOVE everyone. Around a year or so old, the 'aloof' part of the GSD started kicking in and they both know their real friends and acquaintence and tend to just ignore others. But not cause they are wary or afraid, they just know that most people are ok.

Good luck if you have to kennel your dog. Or go on vacation. Or have relatives over. Or get married and have kids. If you continue to refuse to socialize because you believe that is the way to get a protection dog.

From one of the articles from Leerburg.com (so this isn't just ME) stating that a good protection dog is GENETIC not a socialization issue:

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QUESTION:

I have a 10 1/2 month old female German Shepherd. Is it possible to over socialize a dog? If so, I think I did this. My dog LOVES everyone. I take her to meet a lot of people, and there're are a lot of family and friends coming to our house on a daily basis. She does not bark when our doorbell rings, and when it does ring she runs to the door tail wagging and ears pinned back. My problem is that I do want her to start protecting the house w/o being a killer dog.(I have 3 children). She treats family and friends the same way she treats strangers. Is she too young to start showing aggression(barking) towards strangers who come to house? Will this aggression(barking) come naturally or must it be taught. Our last female shepherd was a great watchdog and it was not taught, it just came to her. Should I keep socializing her, or should I back off a little?

Thanks,
John Gaffney

ANSWER:

Your dog sounds like a nice dog, becoming territorial is a factor of genetics and maturity not socialization. Your dog sounds like it has good nerves. If you want it trained you will have to do some testing when it is older, (18 months). The bottom line is that if you want this you need to learn about the drives that are used in the work. Go to my web site and read the articles.

A lot of dogs will bark at people when they reach maturity. They do it because they have weak nerves. The very instant anyone puts any kind of pressure on them they turn and run. The fact is 99.999% of the dogs out there fall into this category.

 Quote:

Aaron, are you working with a dog trainer/club?

Cause if you are trying to get 100% of your dog hints and recommendations from this site you are in trouble. We all have different backgrounds, goals and experience. And it sounds to me like this is the first puppy/dog you have ever raised.

To me, you have way too high standards/goals for an 8 month old BABY. Different people on your different topics have said that over and over and you seem to blow that off and not address it. If you were going to a good trainer, I think you would be able to put how well (or not) you pup is REALLY doing and into perspective. Seems like you are expecting a 'baby' to be fairly perfect and act like an adult dog. Additionally, it appears you have a high drive and motivated pup which would be a handful for ANY dog owner, let alone one who is not getting any professional assistance.

FIND A DOG CLUB/TRAINER and go with their recommendations. And/or if you don't like them, go to someone else.

As far as refusing to socialize your dog because you want him to do protection, you will end up with a dog that is protective because of FEAR rather than coming from a confident and secure place. I have 2 GSD's that I have socialized the bejeezers out of and the do not LOVE everyone. Around a year or so old, the 'aloof' part of the GSD started kicking in and they both know their real friends and acquaintence and tend to just ignore others. But not cause they are wary or afraid, they just know that most people are ok.

Good luck if you have to kennel your dog. Or go on vacation. Or have relatives over. Or get married and have kids. If you continue to refuse to socialize because you believe that is the way to get a protection dog.

From one of the articles from Leerburg.com (so this isn't just ME) stating that a good protection dog is GENETIC not a socialization issue:

 Quote:

QUESTION:

I have a 10 1/2 month old female German Shepherd. Is it possible to over socialize a dog? If so, I think I did this. My dog LOVES everyone. I take her to meet a lot of people, and there're are a lot of family and friends coming to our house on a daily basis. She does not bark when our doorbell rings, and when it does ring she runs to the door tail wagging and ears pinned back. My problem is that I do want her to start protecting the house w/o being a killer dog.(I have 3 children). She treats family and friends the same way she treats strangers. Is she too young to start showing aggression(barking) towards strangers who come to house? Will this aggression(barking) come naturally or must it be taught. Our last female shepherd was a great watchdog and it was not taught, it just came to her. Should I keep socializing her, or should I back off a little?

Thanks,
John Gaffney

ANSWER:

Your dog sounds like a nice dog, becoming territorial is a factor of genetics and maturity not socialization. Your dog sounds like it has good nerves. If you want it trained you will have to do some testing when it is older, (18 months). The bottom line is that if you want this you need to learn about the drives that are used in the work. Go to my web site and read the articles.

A lot of dogs will bark at people when they reach maturity. They do it because they have weak nerves. The very instant anyone puts any kind of pressure on them they turn and run. The fact is 99.999% of the dogs out there fall into this category.

Yes, you got me. This is the first bullfrog I have raised. I normally keep them separate. If together they tend to croak when the darkness hits the house and its supposed to be silent times.

The dog I have is afraid of Jerimiah, my big ol’ bullfrog. Jerry is quite a character when the play together. He licks my dogs face and they love to play together in the bathtub.

Anyhow, this was all a joke. This was for entertainment purposes only.

Getting to the nitty gritty.

Actually NO, I have had many many many dogs I have raised myself. Circumstances were different for each. From when I was a youngster to now in this present time. As for the dogs in the past several, situations change. I have had A LOT more dogs than one could imagine. Things from selling the dog back to the breeders and not getting my money, thieves, and so on. Some of the dogs are with family friends, etc….

SO it varies in other words.

The thing is/was I NEVER cared with my other dogs in terms of whining etc..The dogs that I had raised and done myself. So enough to get a gist of the routine and care not to mention I am a hop skip and a jump away from going to vet school, and on top of that am an animal research scientist, and above that am a reptile exotic breeder. So basically, yeah, I know my animals pretty damn good. I CRUSH the vet students entering already. The only thing is the competition. Is hard as all hell. 2400 stundets get accepted every YEAR. Out of the 276 million people that live in the USA. SO its hard.

Anyhow, I have had dogs that NEVER whined EVER. From the day I got it at 6wks on up. I have had dogs that whine excessively, (moms pooch I helped raised, poodle) which cried more than a baby out of the hospital and was severely hurt. The thing cried for nothing and everything.

But me, I am animal savy. Its my thing. Instead of asking for certain things as a young boy, I asked for more reptile enclosures, etc. Now I have been offered seasonal scholerships to finish up at my D-1 college for football. But I could care less. I don’t care if I bench press 450lbs, I don’t care I run a 4.6 in the 40YD, I don’;t care. I could actually get pro scouts to pick me up. But this doesn’t interest me. I seriously could be a millionaire. No lie. Don’t believe? Call Oklahoma Football coaches and ask if a guy that is an animal freak can get drafted but won’t b/c of his animals. Yes, that’s me. But who cares. How did we get on this subject?

Listen, I know my dogs. Some are obviously different. My whole point in coming here was to make SURE that these guys behave differently. Just like with herps. (herps is a terms for herpetological animals like reptiles/amphibians, etc….)

Anyhow, I have never spent a $1000 on a dog. So I did. This dog is more helpful than the bunches of frogs, snakes, etc I have. He’ll be there, interact, etc….

SOOOOooooo, my whole thing was I have dealt with the bully breeds, for OVER 17YRS. This is my SECOND import dog. The first was given to the breeder due to skin probs. Now I have this male, I need to know what to do and do it without going overboard. I am from So Cali. But going to school in the Midwest. My breeder is near me. Appx 400miles round trip. So I can stop by anytime. His father is a VERY civil dog. His mother, not so civil. Being as such, I figured one might be able to point me in the right direction. If you ask me about TRUE Ameircan Pit Bull terriers, my more than a decade experience with them going on 2 decades, you start to have inclination on the breed itself. From all realms of behavior and training.

SO I figured that someone here might have had some experience with “partially civil bred” dogs and how civil versus non civil dogs behave.

Like trhe post you implemented, it explicitly states genetics bing an integral part in the dog and his actions. So now you know my dogs genetica and yet behaviors, what you feel from this point. You don’t have to talk DOWN to me per se. I am not a young child or an adult that is dumb and dumber. I am quite acute with my animal instincts as I have done it in ALL ranges and species for MANY years. More than 25 to be exact. I am an animal freak in other words.

SO speak to your highest degree and intelligence and if I misunderstand you, trust me, I’ll quote and ask about what you meant as in other posts. Am I elderly? Nope, far from it. But speak as if you were speaking to someone as old or older in terms of your dog savy….

Ok, thanks for reading through all of this and such.

Now knowing what you know from my informative exerpt, please fill me in from this point…

To clear some things, he’s a mal. He’s from a dad who is a dutch nat’l competitor and a civil dog, mom is from the Elgos lines, etc…. SO you basically now know the genetics of my dog in a generalized sense. Your post with the article form the other gentleman discussed genetics as being more of the case than not.

My dog is 8mo and will growl and bark like all hell if you even touch the front door, not to mention act like a fool or even come close to the SUV windows. If he can see you, he’s growling. If you come close he’s going super barko. I PROMOTE this. Not by words, etc. I do it by not saying a damn thing. I don’t care. I like this behavior. SO I let him do what he does. But if I am in the SUV, and my friend is in, no, chill out.

NOW, as far as socializing. Let me reming you I damn near LIVE on my campus. I take him EVERYDAY through the library, the student union esp during the finals week. Where the university give FREE food during the morning hours. Hundreds of students get to wait for hours for food. Well my dog goes with me through the crowds. I also take him to the dog park when the dogs are not overblown so there is no “punking” and a few dogs running around is fine.

I also brought and bring my dog several times per week up and down elevators, escalators, in parkinglots with LOTS of strangers, etc.

I don’t EVER remember saying I NEVER socialized. If you go back and run my name through thte database, you’d know my dog is OVER socialized and the problems I had with him even though socialiozed big time, he’d STILL be aggressive to anyone walking across the street, opening their car, etc even though he was not threatened.

My friend and I box lightly now and then. Before he used to go at me( meaning the dog) and bark. Now3mo later, he rushes my friend and barks jumping and snapping at my boy. To me and knowing animal behavior to a degree (and since I am with him and know him for his entire life) he has become more defensive. It was annoying top have him rush to a strangers aid when we sought his behavior with the animal behaviorist and my class when this happened.

But he’s turning around. The whining is obvious but at 8MO OLD? I don’t buy it. Which is why I asked. Maybe WORKING bred dogs are different in general. My dogs in the past decade (which weren’t working anything) NEVER whined like this. At this point he whines but I say nothing until I can’t take it. But I am patient and he really doesn’t do it.

Every now and then. Guaranteed when I am outside talking to the neighbors, etc, he’ll be whining his but off from the inside of the house if the windows are open. But this is only IF he smells or hears me outside.

I have come to realize that this dog (due to breeding and genetics as your post implied) shows that he is much too intense for the average dog )

From his civil breeding, I know what I have. Since when have I VER said I NEVER wanted him socialized? I’d am fine in fact do FAR FAR FAR m,ore than the regular owners. He’s socialized more than I should. In the other post, they said I was doinmg overboard.

Basically, whining has NOTHING to do with socializing. If it does please shine some light for me this way. I at random know a guy who bought his dog from the same breeder. His dog was attacking people on command at 6mo old. Our dogs are SOOO very close in breeding. My dog was MORE socialized than his. But another officer around town saw my dog and the effort I put forth. He said “ Your doing more than any working dog owner I have ever seen and onl;y want the DOG not plural for the means only for the benefit of the dog and man. “

I am not here for a community etc. Just me and my dog and our protection and health.

Try and touch my boy and he won’t bite, just move away from your hands trying to pet him. He seeks no strangers love. AT ALL. I love him for such. He’s MY DOG not the public. My line I draw is, don’t screw with strangers as far as aggression, bark that’s fine until I tell him to shut it, don’t come in my car or house, etc…


Nothing more, nothing less…. To keep eachother safe. That’s all….

Aaron,
This is just my suggestion, but as a PPD trainer and importer, I don't see any problem with socializing a future PPD, as long as the dog's temperament will tolerate it.
A totally unsocial dog usually won't be allowed in as many situations as a socialized one, and is therefore less likely to be present in certain situations where you might want the dog present. All depends on what your end goal for the dog is.

 Quote:

Aaron,
This is just my suggestion, but as a PPD trainer and importer, I don't see any problem with socializing a future PPD, as long as the dog's temperament will tolerate it.
A totally unsocial dog usually won't be allowed in as many situations as a socialized one, and is therefore less likely to be present in certain situations where you might want the dog present. All depends on what your end goal for the dog is.

Wow, Did you see how many typo's I had. Geeesh. I shouldn't type when I am tired as all hell. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Anyhow,

I have a pretty good grasp of what the outcome will be on the amount of socializing. Being a pretty aloof breed, the territorialism should be more than suffiencent for home protection, etc. Its those of us who want to take it and the dog to the next level.

But what about the whining? That's my whole thing. Actually, that was the post got a bit off track about what I was asking.

So many would say its b/c my dog is so young. But I think that is hog wash. My friend has a 5mo old rottie. He doesn't whine and cry NEARLY as much. In fact, I have never heard him whine. My dogs in the past, my personal, not family raised with my help etc., NEVER whined. They whine as pups. Yea, up to about say 3-4mo old. No biggie. Its a young puppy. But at 8mo going on 9mo? No way. they said to put it in the perspective of the dog being 13yrs old in human years.

But think of it in my terms. You being a man, or a girl for that matter, but he's a male and males DO behave differently due to hormones. But anyways, did you cry like a little baby ALL the time. If your parents boo boo'd you every time you tripped outside you'd be a "sweet" young boy today. But if its not that bad, and you explain to the boy, "go on and play with your friends" by the time he gets to be 16yrs old, scraping a knee skateboarding or surfing and spitting up salt water is all part of the game and you don't think of it much.

So I am to the point where I REFUSE to raise a "weakling cry baby, needy" dog. He's an older pup now. Its time to start sitting still when given the sit or down command. Its time to sit still when we are in the public and I am talking to someone. No need for him to be running back and forth pulling due to just being on the move all the time. Sit still. Not forever as he is YOUNG. But he should have SOME sort of discipline.

The baby whining, NO. I HATE that. Like I said, he's getting better but its not whining in the kennel. he doesn't. Its not whining in public. he doesn't.

Its whining, when people get in my car. Its whining when people come to my house and he watches from the kennel as he gets in peoples way. I can turn him lose but have to correct every 5 seconds to GET OFF THE GUESTS. So I think a good electric shock, with my verbal commands may help....

What do you think?

EVERYBODY says" Man, why does you dog whine so much." "What's your dogs problem", "that is a working bred military dog? haha, yea right, that dog is a *****"

Like I said. NONE of the Mollosus or Bully breeds I have most experience with EVER was so "weak" and needy. They seem to beat to a different drum.

Maybe the bully breeds are more my speed. We click. I wish the same to happen for this guy as I am too active and figured my interests would be favored in this breed.

I ALWAYS heard about how the Mal's are "this and that". But the one I have seem more submissive than a so-so protective lab that barks when people come by. except he barks at EVERYTHING. Can't leave him in the yard without pissing the neighbors off barking and baorking at NOTHING. The neighbor is picking his weeds. So this is why you need some other force like electricity.

This is my thought process now. I need to know if my thinking needs slight tuning, so to speak.

What do you think? I am serious. I brought him to the dog park again. Not alot of dogs. No one messed with him to much. Just a little interaction, running, playing, etc. But he is NOT protective of himself at ALL. ALL of my bully breeds are more self righteous. Almost like they inside them have MORE HEART. The things Mals, Shep, Dutchies, etc are really weak hearted. You have to bring the confidence out of them. Otherwise they are just weak. Other dogs, like an Akita will naturally come out and be strong and know what's enough for it. A guy had a 5mo old Akita and the damn little pup had ENOUGH of this husky. The husky was just jumping around him pestering and he had ENOUGH. He let the other dog know.

My mal, and the other female I had, NOPE. The either cower and run or avoid the other dog with everything it has.

They are just a weak breed huh? But can be spectacular in given situations? I mean, I have seen them work and they are bad to the bone but they seem sooooooo weka and passive and submissive to other dogs or people in general its not funny. They'll bark at people but dogs, they are just cowering types.

Is this accurate?

Let me know. I am beginning to have doubts about Mals. If you don't put alot of effort, which I have, into them, then they'll be "weak, shy, run-away to save its butt" type of dog. Not anything close to the " Hey, this dog or person is beginning to be too much. Let me stand up for myself."

They don't stand up for themselves.

I am to the point where I'll keep him and work him but buy an Akita (as I knew a well known breeder when I was a kid and has been doing it for 30yrs to now), My beloved Am. Pit Bull Terriers (too stereotyped and have to X them off my list), maybe an Anatolian Sheperd, an Olde English BUlldoggue, etc to actually protect me. The Mal seem like it would but if hurt, they do what they do best, run away. An old bulldog will keep on keeping on, in general.

What is your take on this....

Thanks...

Guess this is why some breeds have been known to protect without training while others need to be trained. Now, I'm not an expert, and this is just going by what I read, but I guess some breeds, or perhaps lines, perform best if trained and given time to develop, while others may not be so great but don't need as much training...

Anyway, have you tried giving him a command that means, "Shut up, I'm not going to pay attention to you and neither is anyone..."? And then giving him attention on other times? I have an eight year old dog that's very bonded to me, and he would whine and bark if I leave him (we were seperated for five years so I really don't blame him). It became quite irritating to say the least, as he would scratch at the door, or if with someone bark non-stop, etc. I finally got around to it by kissing him, giving him a nice hard biscuit, and saying "Bye Riley!" if I'm going and not coming back for a while. He got the idea and once I bring out the biscuit and kiss him he just eats the biscuit and watches me leave from the corner of his eye.

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I am to the point where I'll keep him and work him but buy an Akita (as I knew a well known breeder when I was a kid and has been doing it for 30yrs to now), My beloved Am. Pit Bull Terriers (too stereotyped and have to X them off my list), maybe an Anatolian Sheperd, an Olde English BUlldoggue, etc to actually protect me. The Mal seem like it would but if hurt, they do what they do best, run away. An old bulldog will keep on keeping on, in general.

I have to admit, I just got a bit lost in your long posts. But from the above, you are now going to keep this 8 month old puppy, but 'give up' on working with him merely cause he whines to get out of the crate and be with you?

And I'm really confused about your vast experience? I do not have vast experience and still have problems because I've found that I can always learn and though these may all be 'dogs' they still all have different personalities. You refuse to socialize, you continue to only have yourself be the entire center of your pups life and focus, and then are disappointed when he's upset when you leave? Upset when you are not with him?

It appears to me you have created EXACTLY what you have. A puppy that is a dog, that is a pack animal, and YOU are it's pack. When a puppy is separated from it's pack, it's NORMAL reaction is to get back with it, and if it's unable to get to the pack, it will whine so the pack will find it.

Every puppy is different. And every GOOD trainer I know realizes this and adjusts their training method for the dog. Don't know too many of the good ones who just give up on an 8 month old unless there is a huge and real problem. And I don't get that a bit of whining is such a huge problem.

Aaron:
"This is my thought process now. I need to know if my thinking needs slight tuning, so to speak."

This is free advice, so take it for what it's worth - but you need to relax about this whining thing. It's no big deal. My male GSD whines quite a bit ( several board members thought this was pretty funny at some of the Flinks seminar that we've all attended ) , yet there are dozens of people from this forum that have seen him in action, and an unprotected man would be fortunate to survive an encounter with him if they attacked me.
His whining and vocalization do not make him any less of a PPD. I'll trade him squeaking for his ability to actually protect me, which very few dogs will actually do.

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you need to relax about this whining thing. It's no big deal.

Well said, and to the point. Hopefully your opinion with be considered.

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Its whining, when people get in my car. Its whining when people come to my house and he watches from the kennel as he gets in peoples way. I can turn him lose but have to correct every 5 seconds to GET OFF THE GUESTS. So I think a good electric shock, with my verbal commands may help....

Will your refusal to socialize him so that meeting people is a normal part of his day. And the fact you would rather correct a puppy using the e-collar for being SO excited with company coming over rather than do the easy thing and socialize...............

I think you probably are right to give up on this dog. He seems too energetic, intelligent, and starved for attention for any training methods in you use.

Will the breeder take him back so he can reach his potential? He sounds like a great dog for a person more experienced with this type of dog.

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Same issue with another neighbor who installed one of those underground fences. His dogs (labs) simply endured the stim and ran off anyway! My take is that it's a nice concept for a fence, but it just doesn't work on all dogs

It can, but the owner has to take the time to train the dogs to turn around and go back in the yard when they feel the stim, rather than just keepin' on keepin' on. Most people that get invisible fences just pop the collars on the dogs and turn them out and expect everything to be hunky dory, and that's just not the case.