You can certainly have too much dog for the 'kind' of sheep you are working or for the herding you want your dog to do. Different traits are more useful under certain herding situations than others. The experience you had with your dog may not have necessarily been too much 'dog' but a dog that did not know what the job was that you wanted and a situation that neither the cows or dog could do the 'right' thing.

When working a herd of 200-1,000 sheep you will need a strong dog, wtih very good drives. One would likley choose the same dog you might choose for SchH. However, there are other qualities besides drive that I look for in a good HGH or herding dog. One of the most important things I look for is a dog who is biddable/team player/genetic obedience. This is not SOFT. There is a huge difference. I want a dog that is trainable. I also want a dog that does not hold grudge after corrections. A dog that will bounce back immediately. Other qualities I look for are confidence, high prey drive (as long as they are also teachable) and a real keenenss. Not easily distracted from the job they are doing. A SUPER work ethic. I can work my intact male with a bitch in season, ready to be bred close by (and he has a good sex drive) but he has a VERY strong work ethic. On the down side, sometimes this keeness combined with good drives can be harder to work on smaller numbers of sheep that are 'lighter'(more reactinary to the movement of a dog)

I agree my dog didnt know what I wanted and had she been properly trained I would not have had a problem.
ON a slightly different question,I wonder what some of your thoughts are on how a herding shepherd's dog was socialized in the days of old.I mean we place so much emphasis on socializing these days,what kind of socializing did old time shepherds do with their dogs?I wonder how they dealt with horses as Im sure they encountered them on the road or in the nearby field.Or perhaps they selected dogs with such nerve strength and character that socializing wasnt a problem??Just a thought while we are on the subject.

I took my pup to another trainer for herding lessons this weekend and I was a bit put off by the experience. First, I thought she had experience with GSDs but now I doubt that. He is 71/2 months old about 70 lbs. He got in the ring and started doing his thing and then when she wanted him to turn the other way she smacked her cane on the ground in front of him. When he didn't turn she smack the hell out of him with her cane that also had a little whip on the end of it. He yelped in pain and barked.

From then on out she took it upon herself to dominate him and smacking the sh*t out of him a bunch of times when he didn't respond and when barked at her for smacking him with it she pressed the matter.

She then told me how he was an intelligent dog with a lot of drive, but that he was sassy and has too much attitude and too high of an opinion of himself. And how we need to get our relationship in order or he is going to be a real problem when he is mentally mature especially since he is a lot of dog.

I have been working really hard on obedience with my dog and as a pup he has some issues. He was very crazily mouthy, but that has almost entirely disspeared. He is a bit wild and mischievious, but for the most part he is doing well.

I really felt insulted by this lady and my wife and I were thinking "Oh know do we have a problem dog?" But at the same time I don't see how she could gather that much from what happened in the ring. He is let in the ring and instinctively chasing/herding the sheep. He does not now the rules yet she is correcting him with a crack of a whip that had me whincing it really looked painful. And he barks in protest. Why should he be expected to just passively accept this from some total starger? And the fact that he narked back in protest - what does that tell her about my relationship with my dog? That fact that he didn't entirely respect a total stranger means that my dog doesn't respect me as the leader? Does that make sense?

Maybe I am wrong, but I felt like she had a chip on her shoulder when it comes to big dogs. She felt like she needed to get in and dominate him right away because he is a big healthy dog. She also went on about how she really has to whack the shepherds hard because they are so big and tough and it doesn't bother them much.

I disagree - My dog is a soft dog. He whimpers at the mildest prong collar correction.

Nobody likes to be told that they have a problem dog and they are doing a bad job, but I don't see how this woman could have ascertained any of that?

Any thoughts out there? I am starting to lose interest in the Herding thing even though my pup loves it because the herding people out there are too small dog (Border Collie/Aussied) oriented.

She also was very curious about his breeding and what he was bred for and when I said Schutzund she got really hung up on that aspect of him. She kept telling me how Schutzund dogs are bred to intelligently disobey and behave in a manner that would otherwise be considered unacceptable in other dogs?

Do I need to find someone else?

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Do I need to find someone else?

Absolutely. That or take that little cane/whip and give her a few cracks.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/fouet.gif

Tom gives great advice, as always!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No way would I take my dog back to someone like that.The first time a stanger whacks my dog,especially my young dog,their is going to be a fight and it wont involve any dogs either.Dont let this lady herd you away from herding <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.It sounds like your dog loves it but the trainer should be teaching you how to train your dog.JMO

Thanks for the input. I was pretty sure this lady was a little off. Not that my dog doesn't need more obedience work. Not having any experience with herding I wasn't sure what to think about the way she handled it. The place where he took his instinct test didn't have a whip attached to the cane and the lady gave him very mild whacks when he got too close to the sheep and he responded very well to this. I wan't sure if it was because it was just a test for newbies and that they may up the ante (level of correction) for actual classes.

It sounds like I should go back to the last place.

Thanks for the input. Anyone on this board doing herding with their GSD in the Los Angeles area?

Several things were happening. I will try and best explain. Your experience is typical of a strong gsd with good drives and with a trainer that only understands one way of herding/working a dog on sheep.

What the trainer was trying to do was not necessarily 'wrong' or bad....just was not working with your dog. They may also be correct in a couple of things but perhaps also very narrow minded in thier herding experiences.

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I took my pup to another trainer for herding lessons this weekend and I was a bit put off by the experience. First, I thought she had experience with GSDs but now I doubt that. He is 71/2 months old about 70 lbs. He got in the ring and started doing his thing and then when she wanted him to turn the other way she smacked her cane on the ground in front of him. When he didn't turn she smack the hell out of him with her cane that also had a little whip on the end of it. He yelped in pain and barked.

Smacking the stock stick (cane) in front of the dog is in hopes that it is going to 'give' to this pressure. The stock stick is not the only tool used in accomplishing this task. Body pressure/placement is also used. I have NO idea if the trainer was in the right position to have the dog give to the pressure or turn.

It *sounds* like your dog likley did not really want to give to the pressure and/or the trainer. The dog *likely* did not acknowlegde or see this trainer/person as someone IN thier picture. It was just the dog and sheep. Common with some dogs and OFTEN puppies. Thier prey drive takes over and it is just 'fun'...get to the sheep etc. MOST dogs will 'give' to the pressure of the trainer/new person right away as they do not know them and usually have not figured out if this person is going to make them do something or not. Dogs as well as sheep will 'read' the power of the person and will decide if they need to listen or not.

Likley as the dog did not 'see' this person in thier picture with the stock stick being banged on the ground the trainer 'upted' the anti by now using it on the dog.

It does not sound to me like your dog was actually yelping in pain but more likley out of surprise. Had it been pain...your dog would have likley quit/and/or backed off from the trainer (doesn't sound like the dog did that?) Instead it sounds like your dog got more ticked (started barking) and was aruguing with them.

This is also likely why the trainer continued to 'dominate' the dog. Wanting to 'win' the arguement.

Now, from what you describe a couple of things come to mind. First, it would *seem* that the trainer is correct in a few things. First, your dog is intelligent, sassy and likely does have a higher opinion of self (hard to know if the pup/dog was barking/fighting because of this or also with some fear involved without being there and seeing it in person. ) The trainer is also likley correct in saying need to get our relationship in order or he is going to be a real problem when he is mentally mature especially since he is a lot of dog.

That is not a BAD thing though! Where I differ in what all happened is that strong minded dogs do not need to be beaten or physically shown that they need to submit to alpha. It is about a MENTAL connection/relationship with your dog. Yes, at times you will need to be firm physically with the dog but the dog must submit willingly to your authority because it chooses to. Because you have built that relationship with your dog. Genetic obedience helps or makes this easier. Handler 'hard' dogs make it more difficult. The type of person you are and your power level also contributes.

Your dog is still a puppy!!!!!! Lots to learn. As well, male pups between the age of 4 months to 11 months have TWICE the amount of tetosterone than adult IN TACT males. They ARE full of themselves. It does get better as they mature into an adult. That doesn't mean you leave things/training until they are older.

Without really 'seeing' what was happening it is real tough to know if the trainer was way out to lunch. The trainer took your pup and tried to fit it into a 'box' of what 'all herding' dogs should do. GSD's were NOT bred for this. Many adapt to it and do well but they were originally bred for working farther off sheep, on larger numbers and likely larger sheep. MANY trainers are afraid of the stronger gsd's and get way tougher on them than likely is needed. What is REALLY needed is a better understanding of the breed, what it was bred to do and how to bring out the best in the dog.

WIthout knowing all the details of what happened I would have liked to have seen the trainer put your pup/dog back on leash and work a bit on control and seeing 'me' the trainer in the picture. This is accomplished in a number of ways. Intially I take a pup/dog on leash and just 'be' with it and work with it a bit. A bit on stops, and comes. Seeing 'me' as someone that they will be working WITH in the ring and sheep. I then would have taken the dog in ON leash and worked it the same way. At this point, I would have already talked with you about your dog, what I am seeing, and what kind of corrections I 'may' need to do/use and are you comfortable with it.

A pups/dogs first experience should be postive and controlled. I don't want the pup/dog thinking that this time on sheep is a free for all where they get to chase and have fun without rules. The more they listen the more freedom they get.

On occasion I have taken a puppy, worked it on leash with the sheep and then stopped. I had a Standard Poodle with a TON of prey drive and confidence that was 8 months old. I felt that I would need to give stronger corrections to the dog than I would have liked at his age. My advice was for the owner to work on some obedience with her dog,let it mature a bit more and then come back.

On occasion I have worked a dog that REALLY does NOT want to see me in thier picture. They are handler hard, not real biddable, and it is a fight for the alpha position. My first gsd was like this. She became a multi high in trial dog, earned her advanced herding in several avenues and is Canada's No. 1 Herding gsd. It was a LOT of work getting there but I learned a ton along the way. One thing I learned was I wanted/needed more biddabiilty in my dogs. This is NOT softness. It is a dog that wants to work as a team. When you have that...your dog can be a super high drive dog...you will still succeed.

Your dogs experience was not about 'knowing the rules' , it was about not 'giving' to pressure. A good trainer will be able to bring out the BEST in your dog regardless. However, you are correct in saying your dog did not understand what it is the trainer wanted from them. It is the trainers responsiblity to TELL and SHOW your dog what that is so that they understand. This trainer did it in a way that was not necessarily the 'best' choice for your dog.

As far as what the trainer says about SchH dogs. Well....some high sport dogs may not make the best herding dogs compared to others because of the few things she mentioned but in my experience those are FEW and far between. Almost ALL the gsd's I have ever worked (and I have worked a LOT) would be awesome at herding. (I have worked dogs from all lines and SchH titled dogs as well). I have had hard core working line people bring thier dogs out and think they are going to 'kill' the sheep....far from it.

Would love to know the trainers name but perhaps you should PM it to me and not post it publicly.

As far as continueing...... I would be REAL careful about working your pup/dog with a person that sees all herding dogs from one perspective. Would hate to see you ruin your dog and take the 'life' out of him.

Wow. Thanks for all the info. The way you describe the process sheds a lot more light on it. His yelping seemed to be from all 3 - surprise, pain, and arguing.

My dog backed off a few times but came back in with encouragement. In particular, at one point when she seemed to want to really challenge him (after he barked at being hit) and tell him that she was the boss she smacked him particularly hard and charged him with a huge "nooo" and he actually came over to me - he didn't run over but he kinda came over and was like hey she is really coming at me. After that, he was a little reluctant to go back at it, but it was 95 in the sun and he had been going for at least 5 minutes.

I definitely got a sense from the way she talked and described GSDs and male dogs of other breed that she felt intimidated by larger dogs and needed to go overboard to establish herself. She had some lungs on her and she wasn't a petit woman.

I asked her if there was a difference with the way males and females approach herding. She described in length how she breeds Border Collies and primarily works with females because the males are harder to control and establish an Alpha role over. That made me wonder about her.

When you say she is correct in saying I need to get my relationship in order what do you mean. How does my dog's unwillingness to submit to a perfect stranger reflect the relationship and level of obedience my dog has with me?

Also, she said that for his age he was herding in a very mature way physically, and in the way he handled the sheep, but for a puppy that old he shouldn't be so "sassy."

My wife videotaped the whole thing. Maybe I could find a way to put it up on the web. I don't have a firewire connection to my computer. I didn't look as bad on the video, but I was still a little shocked when I saw it on video.

She told me that she was familar with the tending style, but that she hadn't done it in a while and that it didn't matter at this point because even in tending style you woudl start off the same way and it is really about the formation in which they bunch up the sheep. I thought that was a bit odd becuase I read an article on the web about GSD style herding and how they should start on a large herd and not a few animals. These sheep did seem harder than the ones at the last place I went to. The were stomping and trying to intimidate my dog when he got near the ring. They were also larged - more rounded full bodies.

I'll PM you the trainer's name and ranch.

Thanks for all the great info.

Again it is really hard for me to know exactly what is going on, what this trainer felt/saw etc. However, if your dog went over to you and quit....in my HUMBLE opinion, it was TOO much pressure, especially considering the age of the pup.

K..why did she smack him and run at him with a NOooo? Was the dog biting the sheep? Running to close to the sheep? Doesn't sound right. I seldom use the word no. I want to teach the dog what I WANT not what I don't want. So, instead they are rewarded (given the sheep) for showing me good work/behavour and blocked when it is not right. (no sheep reward). The only time I would likley use a 'no' is in more advanced training where I KNOW my dogs understands what I am asking and/or they are going in for an incorrect grip. (on the lower leg). I want the german shepherd to know right from the beginning this kind of grip is incorrect.

I don't worry too much about barking. Most times it goes away with more experience and when the dog understands what it is you want. A lot depends on why they are barking. I also try NOT to get into a pissing match/arguement with the dog. What for? If the dog is real arguementive I start in a smaller area and again reward the right work and block on the other If I am trying to get a dog to do something and they are argueing I would continue working with them on what they want. As an example. I work with a rough collie and his owner. Collies tend to work in their own world. Not particularly hard dogs to work in that they are most often 'easy' on stock. BUT...they can be stubborn. Can't work my way...I won't work. Or they stand there and bark at you. This particular dog does that when I or the owner puts 'more rules' on him. So, I want him farther off the sheep. We push him out. I then want him to go around the sheep on a 'go by' but he wants to go the other way. By my body placment, where I have my stock stick I encourage him to go the direction I want. If he stands there and barks I encourage more...maybe a tap on his rump/shoulder putting a bit more pressure on the direction I want him to go. As SOON as he 'gives' to me and starts that direction I also 'give' and take off the pressure I was putting on. We both win. Very FEW dogs will fight/argue for the sake of fighting/argueing. They are trying to get thier way but MOST REALLY want to work so give in to my pressure so they can get the reward of working the sheep.

I have seldom felt intimiated by dogs....in fact never at this point. However, I have felt and worked VERY strong minded dogs. The reason I work initially with the dog outside the sheep arena is to see and get a feel for the dog. Will they listen to me. Do they see me in this picture. THIS is the place to work and establish the initial relationship with the dog. Then we move into the arena and work on the same thing. Gradually I let go of the leash and most never know they are still not 'on leash'.

Now, I have worked dogs that are a TON of work. THey don't ever really 'give' to me, thus I spend a LOT of time blocking them from my sheep, trying to get them into the correct position. I have different 'tools' that I will use for this. (sometimes a big rake works best). This is not used to hit the dog but instead to 'block' the dog. It is MUCH more visual for them than a regular stock stick. I also have a stock stick with a flag on the end and I have used this 'on' the dog. It makes a lot of sound but does not 'hurt' them. (pole is flexible).

Thus far my one bitch has been the HARDEST time to work. Lots of reasons. I have an intact male gsd I work and a male intact border collie. Both have VERY strong work ethics and have not been hard to establish the alpha role with. In fact, as mentioned thus far my one female has been the hardest headed one. My other female I am working now is a joy to train as well. I have found males harder (AT TIMES) for other reasons. Most of them being around thier strong sex drive and not so strong work ethic. In most packs (wild and otherwise) it is the BITCH that is 'top dog' ...not the male. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Now...females can have a stronger work ethic because of the sex drive of the male and thus you don't 'fight' this as much. So...CAN be easier to train.

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When you say she is correct in saying I need to get my relationship in order what do you mean. How does my dog's unwillingness to submit to a perfect stranger reflect the relationship and level of obedience my dog has with me?

MOST dogs will submit to a stranger even when they won't submit to the owner (in the herding experience). IF the stranger/trainer is strong mentally or can at least match the dogs mental strength. Assuming this trainer is experienced with the gsd as a breed, I also assume that her lack of control MAY mean that your dog needs to respect the alpha position in general more.

Now, after reading more of your experience it does not SOUND to me like your dog is really challengeing the alpha position as much as it was not understanding what it is the trainer wanted. Again, hard for me to evalute without being there. It also SOUNDS like the trainer was equating the argueing your dog was doing with wanting to be alpha. That is not necesarily true OR at least not to the extent of it being a huge problem. Yes, they are wanting to 'win' but not necessarily at 'all costs'. Does that make sense? If your dog was not a puppy I may look at it a bit different but puppies...have lots to learn in life. Some are more 'mouthy/vocal' than others. It is not necessarily a bad thing. Often it is out of confusion, fear, and being a puppy! It is natural for them to have some fears at this age. They need to be able to work through them in a positive way.

She is 'sort of ' right and 'sort of ' wrong in her information /perspective of the tending style. Yes, many dogs/pups are still instinct tested in this way and then move over to boundary work but they are not worked extenstively like this if you want to do boundary work. I put my 5 month old pup on sheep in a round pen last month to see what he would do. VERY strong, was hard to push out etc. I 'caught' him and said that will do. That is the last time he has been on sheep to this point. Now, for 'work' I am doing other things. He comes with me for chores, gets to be around the sheep, learn to get a feel for the pressure they put on a dog to intimiate, stand his ground etc. He also comes with me 'on leash' around the sheep, when I work my other dogs etc. He will next learn a border/boundary and what that means. I may or may not have sheep on the other side of the boundary.

I worked his brother for the first time 2 wks. ago. I did NOT take him in the round pen. Instead I took him to an arena where I have a border/boundary. I had the sheep on the other side and showed him the boundary. I worked with him for 10 min. or so on how to 'not' cross the boundary. I showed him what I wanted when his instincts or prey drive took over (to patrol the graze on the boundary). Within 10 min. he was doing a bit of patroling and working the border/boudary.

Now....NATURAL boundary dogs may show you with the sheep right away "the formation in how they bunch up the sheep" as the trainer describes but this is REAL hard to do and show on 3 sheep in a round pen!!!

My female Tikka did this naturally with my sheep without any training. I used her (by default...as my sheep would NOT come in from the back pasture and I needed to bring them to the barn for night) and Tikka was the only dog I had with me. At 5 1/2 months old she ran FULL out to the sheep flock, initially split them, chased a bit but RIGHT away stopped herself, the one split off group ran back to the other group and Tikka brought the whole herd in by 'tending'. GOing from the front of the herd to the back. Was incredible to see. She did awesome. In fact so good, I took her 3 months later and got her first title. She did it in an arena with 3 sheep but did it by 'tending' going from front and back to move the sheep. Judges comments on the sheet were .....this dog should be worked in boundary /tending, she is a natural. Not all gsd's are like this. I remember when I first started training my first bitch. She liked to work close and was VERY pushy. Trainer also thought all gsd's would naturally take to a tending /boundary role when given the chance. She told me to go get her whole flock (40 sheep) out of the back feild. Cheyenne was trained a 'tad' at this point so I had a wee bit of control. I was scared to do what she asked. She came with me. It was a catastrophe. ALmost BROKE my leg doing it. She did NOT go naturally into tending /boundary and instead pushed them and would bite when they didn't move fast enough. I was STUCK in the middle of the flock and couldn't move. The sheep didn't know what to do....as I was suppose to be leading them and the dog was just trying to get them to move. Ever been pushed around by 40 sheep with you in the middle. NOT a fun thing!!

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The were stomping and trying to intimidate my dog when he got near the ring. They were also larged - more rounded full bodies.

The sheep will read the power level of the dog right from the beggining and try to intimiate them. The dog NEEDS to take control of these sheep. (and some sheep put on a good show but will move real quick with any dog.) IF they can intimiate the dog by feet stomping the trainer MUST step in right away so the sheep DON'T win. SHeep can really hurt a dog with thier heads and ramming them into things with thier bodies. I don't allow my sheep to do this to dogs. This is where my dogs are allowed to grip (when the sheep are given an opportunity to move and listen to dog before resorting to this). My dogs are great at reading the sheep and giving a correction when needed. I have some pretty ornary ewes......that will nail and take down a dog when given an opportunty and will take a cheap shot on a dog just as quickly as a dog will take it on them. NOW..in most cases....these sheep have been CREATED by having dogs allowed on them that have harrassed them, bullied them and NOT given them an opporunity to make the 'right' choice by the dog before being disciplined.

NOW....your dog barking may have been more a reflection of what was going on with the sheep more than anything!!!