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I,m finding out there's alot of people who call themselves trainers but don't have the philosophy of many on this board, thanks Al

Al as you're discovering there really aren't any requirements necessary for someone to put out a shingle as a dog trainer. Sometimes it's people who have trained one or two of their own dogs and think it would be a great way to make some money. Sometimes they've been to a school that's "certified" them as dog trainers. Some of those certifications are meaningful and some are a joke. Sometimes the "schools" last for two to three weeks and also include marketing information. Sometimes they're mail order or Internet based and have no "hands-on" work. Sometimes they last for twelve weeks and involve working dozens of dogs. The latter are the only ones that really teach anyone how to train dogs but even then, it takes a lot of hands-on experience before one can rightfully call themselves a dog trainer. Some trainers have been certified by LE or other groups after having trained a certain number of dogs and passed some tests. Probably most of us who are known as trainers haven't received any such certification. We've worked our way up, learning from a host of mentors and dozens, maybe hundreds of dogs. I know a couple of people who say that if you've trained one dog to sit, you're a "dog trainer." But I don't think that's what most of us mean when we use that term.

I still think the best advice as to how to select a dog trainer was contained in Nick's first sentence, "ask around." Go to areas where people have their dogs out. When you see a dog that's performing as you want your to, ask them where they got the training done. Try some local training clubs, SchH, Ring, etc, if there are any in your area. You might have to make a drive to find one and "ask around" as to who they consider to be good and who to avoid. Impressive ads in the Yellow pages or good looking websites aren't about good dog training, they're about marketing. A skill which some who call themselves dog trainers have mastered. Too bad they're not as good with the dogs.

I think that the real measure of a dog trainer is simple, "results achieved consistently and humanely."

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That's interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that many don't. When Donn Yarnall was head trainer for the LAPD he didn't have a demo dog. He's retired now and still doesn't have a demo dog. Yet he manages to do LE seminars around the world. Wendell Nope is head of training for Utah POST, he doesn't have a demo dog either, yet he's all over the US too. I have a dog that is trained for patrol work. His search work is exemplary but his OB is not. I'd use him as a demo dog for law enforcement, personal protection or SAR (absent the alert – he bites) anytime but for OB, he's not a show dog.

**Nick writes:
Lou - we're talking training pet dogs here - not police dogs and not sport dogs. In case you missed the original post up top the individual asked about getting his pets trained -so your example of certain individuals within the community of police dog trainers doesn't really apply. That's not apples to apples... but feel free to digress if you must...

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Neither of those trainers had dogs raised from puppies. The dogs they trained were not raised from puppies.

Again - this doesn't apply since it is not the same realm of training. You are referring to dogs for law enforcement and while it is common practice (understandibly so) for LE trainers to purchase and train green dogs - many pet owners are faced with raising puppies. And how would someone counsel someone raising a puppy for a family pet if they haven't done it themselves countless times? I could go one further and ask how would one even coach another individual to raise a puppy for sporting work if they hadn't done it themselves? It's only logical that someone who has successfully done what they are trying to teach is going to be someone with more depth and insight to the subjest than someone who hasn't.

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It may, but it also may be a front that totally hides the fact that they have absolutely no credibility. You can't tell by looking at a trainer's dog how good of a trainer he is. As has been said, he may not have even trained the dog himself. The ONLY way to tell the quality of a trainer is by how well the dogs of his clients respond. Even if he's trained his demo dog himself he may have just hit on the right combination of tools and techniques to get THAT dog to work. He may not have the right answer for all the dogs that are brought to him. Since you have no way of knowing if the trainer has done the work on his own dog, a demo dog should be taken with a grain of salt.

Lou - you seem fixated on this point... I would venture to guess that there are ways for people to find out if they have reason to believe the person is less than honest. What with the internet and the fact that the dog training world isn't that big - I am sure the person would be found out to be a fraud eventually.

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That doesn't change your original statement that if a trainer can't show you his own dog working it's a red flag. It's neither necessary nor is it proof of anything.

In your opinion. My opinion is that it is a testament to the person's abilities, especially if they have raised it from a puppy and done all the work themselves from the ground up. Of course you'll say that some may be showing bought dogs - but that doesn't take away from those who have done the training themselves.

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It may be that they simply don't feel the need.

Fair enough.

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It only proves that one is capable of buying a trained dog.

That's a rediculous statement. You are now inferring that eveyone out there with demo dog is using a dog that was bought already trained!

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It proves nothing about the abilities of that trainer.

Actually - that statment is a little suspect too - because as most know - even a well trained dog requires proper handling to bring out their best performance. Otherwise - anyone can buy a trained dog and have them perform flawlessly - day in and day out... I wish life were that simple - but it isn't & I am surprised that someone who has trained as many police dogs as you have and done as many seminars as you have would dismiss maintenance training and proper handling with a statement like that.

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"Free follow up training" or lifetime "free maintenance training" are often a waste of time if the trainer hasn't gotten the work done in the first place.

Unless the trainer is living with the dog - it isn't his work to get done it is the owners work to get done. You don't get the basic premise that the owner is responsible for doing their homework?

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Sometimes the client is NEVER able to be "satisfied with (the) dog's performance" because the trainer isn't capable. So more (poor training) lessons aren't going to be of any help.

Lou - reading this it seems to me that you are down on trainers. I know it might make one popular to be the protector of all dog owners and shout from the rooftops about how bad and dishonest others are - as you can cater to people's need to be guided when they are uninformed - but you really should open your eyes to the people out there that are doing things right. They do exist.

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The best guarantee is one that offers all of your money back if you're not satisfied. No one should have to continue to train with someone who's not capable of getting the work done.

"best" according to whom? "best" for whom. I would think that a guarantee for a specific service should serve to protect both parties involved. You are operating from the assumption that if the dog is not trained or not trained well enough that it is automatically the trainer's fault. Funny perpective for a trainer to have... Maybe you have been blessed by only having clients who follow everything they are told to do to a Tee - and maybe you just haven't trained enough people and dogs in a one on one format to form as rounded an opinion compared to someone who has trained thousands of dogs and owners who has more likely seen a lot more types of owners and had situations with more variables involved. Or maybe putting others down is a form of elevating ones self.

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If you do private lessons with someone and they fail to practice or show up to lesons and take up your time and expertise - you will give them back their money after they have failed to commit to actually training their dog? I couldn't imagine working this way.

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I can understand why many trainers don't work this way. Training dogs really is often more about training and motivating the owners/handlers than it is about training the dogs. If you can't motivate them to do the work and give them the necessary skills, you've failed.

Interesting perpective. Most trainers sell training... people who come to you get a two for one dog training and Anthony Robins motivational series. Sarcasm aside, I don't see the need to motivate someone - they have to bring that themselves. If I am working with your children in the family - we can take that approach - but if I am working with adults - they are responsible for themselves. Just like the way the normal world works outside of dog training. Usually the motivation will come all on it's own with them seeing their dogs progress. A good trainer will definitely have the client's best interest at heart and will encourage them - but what if the person is lazy or there are other matters at hand in the owners/family dynamic that preclude them from bringing the best out of the dog? Automatically the trainers fault. Like I said interesting perpective - but not one that makes very much sense.

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What if the client doesn't practice or follow directions? Do you really think that the trainer should be penalized financially - even though they did their job?

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If the trainer hasn't motivated the client to do the necessary homework, he hasn't done his job.

That pure BS... I know it sounds nice to people who may be reading this, and maybe it is a comforting thought for some to read that Uncle Lou claims that the dog trainer is responsible for not only educating but for motivating adults to do their homework... but ultimately you cannot make the horse drink the water. When dealing with kids this may apply - but when dealing with adults - really - you are responsible for their own motivation? That's silly. What on earth is the client responsible for? What if they don't follow your directions - whose fault is it? What if you have repeated things over and over - whose fault is it? You are a very vocal supporter of ecollars - correct? What if someone purchases an ecollar and disgregards the manual and other included information... and leave the collar on the dog for a week - which causes neck cores and an infection? Whose fault is it? According to your logic - the manufacturers. People who provide a good or a service have an obligation to their clientele to offer them the very best possible - but when the perso does not follow directions whether due to laziness or incompetency - ultimately the individual is at fault.
Ed - you sell training videos - what if I order one and don't feel motivated - can I have my money back? If I am not motivated is it your fault? What if I prefer to sit my lazy butt on the couch and keep eating pizza insteading of turning the information on your tapes into a beneficial experience for my dog and I? Does that Make Flinks a bad trainer? You a bad video producer? Can I blame Itor too - cause it must be someone's fault!
(BTW - I have several leerburg tapes and have always liked them for content and quality - so I am not trying to take any digs - I hope that is clear cause I am a fan and am only trying to illustrate what I think is a non point here...)

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Perhaps I'm just more choosy about the clients that I take on.

Maybe. You are a police officer correct? So I assume that you don't train as many private clients as someone who does this full time.

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I can't speak for others or other industries. That's how I've always worked and that's how I'll continue.

I don't need to make the time and neither do the trainers I mentioned earlier in this post. Since both of you think that a demo dog is necessary what do you do when your demo dog, for whatever reason, doesn't work to the best of his abilities? Maybe it's health, maybe he's not in the mood, maybe it's an off day. What then? Do you make excuses?

Nick quote:
"If they want to spend time bad mouthing others - that is usually an indication at the very least of unprofssionalism - and in an even worse case a form of insecurity and cover up. I would stay away from anyone in any profession who wants to bad mouth the competition. Let me form my own opinions of the others"


Sorry, I strongly disagree here. The number of dog trainers and vendors that rip people off are staggering. And you think I should just shut up and let people get ripped off? Yeah, I guess I should just wait until they've wasted several thousand dollars so they can form their own opinions? Pfffttt <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I can see which side of the dog business you stand on just by that statement.

And I have no problems with feeling "unprofessional" nor do I think that I'm being "insecure" or have anything to "cover up". And I'll match my accomplishments against anyone.

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Nick quote:
"If they want to spend time bad mouthing others - that is usually an indication at the very least of unprofssionalism - and in an even worse case a form of insecurity and cover up. I would stay away from anyone in any profession who wants to bad mouth the competition. Let me form my own opinions of the others"


Sorry, I strongly disagree here. The number of dog trainers and vendors that rip people off are staggering. And you think I should just shut up and let people get ripped off? Yeah, I guess I should just wait until they've wasted several thousand dollars so they can form their own opinions? Pfffttt <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I can see which side of the dog business you stand on just by that statement.

And I have no problems with feeling "unprofessional" nor do I think that I'm being "insecure" or have anything to "cover up". And I'll match my accomplishments against anyone.

Will that's a pretty broad statement you're making there. If a potential client comes to you asking for information as to what you can do for them - are you going to spend the time telling them about your abilities , services and guarantees or are you going to spend the time talking smack about others? Maybe you misundertood my point?
And for further clarification - how the heck would you know the first thing about me and my business practices? You may want to rethink that statment.
The underlying point is that when someone calls you itis your chance to put your best foot forward - if you want to spend the time bad mouthing to other competition inyour area - that's your choice to do as you like.

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And you think I should just shut up and let people get ripped off?

Noooooooooo! Please don't do that! LoL


I don't think that slandering someone else in order to get more 'clients' is right, but if someone is a con artist, then I want to be told! That way, at least I'll be able to do some research and find out if I want to waste my time talking to someone or not, before I just go and fall victim to their smooth talking and end up wasting my money and time.

Kristen - I agree w/you and if you are talking to local folks who are willing ot tell you their experiences good or bad that's fair enough. What I was referring to is a person (not only for dog training - but in any industry) going to 2 independant contractors for the same job. Company A tells you what they can do for you and explains their services in detail and Company B spends half the time talking about their competitors. First off assuming that you have no prior experience with either - how can you even be assured that Company B isn't making things up about the competition - they have a vested interest in seeing you not take your business elsewhere. Seems siple enough to understand - don't know why the point is being dragged on like this...
And I certainly have been ripped off by dog dealers in the past and would gladly warn anyone who spefiically wanted to know about my experiences - but I am not in the business of selling dogs and the information I am giving out doesn't stand to benefit me in any way. Different concept really.

$0.02's...in this post regarding suitable trainers, and them finding suitable customers...

All points discussed before are, depending on circumstance and context...CORRECT! Imagine that...everyone is right!

I've had some experience learning about humility, restraint, and generally not taking things TOO seriously, when talking or doing dogs for "special" customers.

Ever train a dog to hold a sit, but get reprimanded by its owner about how little fun the dog was having just waiting?! Even if the dog is full ears perked and tail wagging?

What about proofing for distractions on any OB exercise, just to hear the owner say how mean you are to his/her dog?

Frankly, 1) I think MOST dog owners are quite irresponsible, 2) Many dog owners look at dog training much like fast food, quick and easy fix, no matter what happens later, because I can just do it again, or blame the trainer, 3) Many people really don't want their dog trained...they want something to do, they want to be with other people, they want to socialize, they don't want to be alone. They won't change their ways of dog management, 4) Professional dog trainers...that cater to Mrs. Smith's Standard Poodle, and young Kelly's Lab mix, and Eugene's Yorkie...should know what they're dealing with, because to be successful they'll have to be part psychologist as well, and to be happy, they'll have to take it easy.

There are a bunch of unethical people IN GENERAL...clients and suppliers. The way to protect yourself from unethical clients is to lay the ground rules out...on paper...VERY WELL.

Business is a two-sided deal. If you want to keep on doing business with the same person and have good word of mouth, both parties will have to believe they got a good deal.

Humans are really strange...and I think we're actually getting worse as a species. I think to keep those of us from "working lines" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> sane, it's good to prioritize.

At the end of the day, after the "market" has weeded out some bad players, there's always God to answer to.

Excellent post- really well put!
Nick

Nick:
"Will that's a pretty broad statement you're making there. If a potential client comes to you asking for information as to what you can do for them - are you going to spend the time telling them about your abilities , services and guarantees or are you going to spend the time talking smack about others? Maybe you misundertood my point?
And for further clarification - how the heck would you know the first thing about me and my business practices? You may want to rethink that statment.
The underlying point is that when someone calls you itis your chance to put your best foot forward - if you want to spend the time bad mouthing to other competition inyour area - that's your choice to do as you like.







My "broad statement" is based on what I've seen going on in the dog world for over thirty years. And I've made a choice to help people.

Overall there's about five people in the U.S. that do what I do at the level I do. None of us talk bad about each other or really even intrude into each other's area.
However...there are literally hundreds of folks that say they produce ppd's but time and time again have shown that the dogs that they produce are not up to their claims - and I'm kind of tired of it, to tell the truth.

When folks come to me it's because of my reputation, I don't advertise much at all because I don't need to. And if folks have sought me out, I don't need to do a "sell job" because they already know about me and my qualifications ( many new customers are referred to me from previous customers ) and abilities.

And as far as "rethinking my statement", sorry, no. For me it's a black or white issue - you either expose scammers when the opportunity presents itself, or you aid them in their scams by your silence.
For you it appears to be a business and money decision, for me it's an ethics decision to help folks.

And Nick, we're just looking at this from totally different views. I think we're just going to have to "agree to disagree" here.