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You'd need to put the sleeve on and test the actual grip to get the real story there.

Ha! I could see me with one of those things on my arm! It would be bigger than I am! LOL I know you didn't mean that literally, but I still thought it was kind of funny.

I think that fast outs are important in the protection arena and for police dogs as well. I don't buy the argument that "I had to drag my dog off the bite because the suspect was fighting him." Having to do that means the officer (or civilian) has to leave cover and concealment and approach the suspect and dog. Doing so puts him at risk in the event that the suspect is armed or if there is another suspect in the area.

I'd much prefer to be able to out my dog from a distance with a command, no matter what is going on with the person he's biting.

Sometimes dogs bite the wrong person, and sometimes police dog bite police officers. Those folks have the ability to end the fight quite quickly because they have guns. If I'm 50 yards away and my dogs bites an officer it's going to take me a bit of time to cross that distance, meanwhile the dog is biting and the officer is fighting, increasing the damage being done to the officer and increasing, every second, the chance that he's going to end the fight. If I can call the dog off from a distance, the time that the bite occurs will be greatly shortened and the officer won't be as inclined to shoot the dog.

At the same time I don't think it's appropriate that a toy, food or some other reward be used to get the dog to stop biting. Those implements will take a dog out of a combat drive and put him into a play drive. I don't want a PPD or a PSD thinking that he's going to play with the suspect.

I would strongly agree with Lou's post...and reiterate the original questions. How do you train fast, reliable outs? Do you train for them differently in sport vs practical? How? Why?

At our Schutzhund club, the dogs learn that a fast out gets a rebite. No pinch, e-collars, etc. It doesn't take them long to figure this out.

So they anticipate the next bite. What if that next bite isn't suppose to come. What if they can't have the next bite? Will they take another bite because they are used to having the next bite quickly? I'm sure you've worked around this, just curious.

This is how we've done it with good success, for both sport and practical training.


1. Train the out as a motivational exercise. Dog grips, fight stops, give command, dog will eventually let go, praise and animate the prey object again rewarding with a tug and giving the dog the prey item. Food can be used to hurry the process along with pups.

2. This basic rule applies as training progresses, but as the dog's drive increases and he gets older it isn't as effective. . .and that's about the time when the dog's grip is set, his drive to bite is HIGH, and he is working on a helper. At this point when the dog will grip like a devil and fight like a devil, and hang on the decoy till the out command is given, I will start using the e-collar to enforce the out. (I will also increase or decrease the time the dog sits holding the helper till the out is given. That way the dog doesn't automatically out the second the decoy freezes.)

That's the key to a fast out IMO. The dog learns what out means, the dog learns that out will bring continued reward most of the time, AND the dog learns that if he doesn't out he'll be corrected every single time till he releases.



That's the basic principle, you use the dog's own drive as motivation to release and the dog's desire to avoid correction to enforce it. This is the same as you would teach almost any other obedience command.



3. The next step is to work the out with greater distractions around the dog. In different locations. In different positions. With different decoys, Etc. (I've only ever had a problem with one dog doing early outs, and that was fixed by having the decoy drive the dog like a demon if the dog released the bite before the out command was given.)

4. Finally, the out up to this point has been given when the decoy stops moving. After the dog is solid working the out on a still decoy, while working the decoy in various levels of drive and aggression, it's time to introduce a higher level of distraction. . .decoy no longer stay's still and the out command is given.

Over a slow progression you work the out while the decoy distracts the dog.

First we have the dog to a short bite and the decoy fights for a second then pauses. . .and slowly walks backwards with the dog on the bite. Work outs the same as you always have, with a reward and the e-collar.

Build up in a slow progression till the dog will out off of the decoy no matter what he's doing. Sure, after a while you have to use a higher level of compulsion to get the dog to out off of a fighting man. . .especially when groundfighting I've found. . .but it's worth it for the practical dog to have to out off of a screaming and fighting person.


I'm very grateful that my bitch has a very solid out command, it saved a contractor who entered my home and backyard without being invited from more of a bite than what he got. You just never know.

If you're dog is tough, if your training has been good and you nip problems in the bud as the crop up, you can have a dog out off of a fighting decoy without loosing much of anything in the dog's desire and fighting attitude.



If your dog isn't so great, I'd save my training time for other things. But teaching an out off of an active decoy isn't a big deal, nor is it difficult.


How effective my training will be when my dog is really in a serious fighting situation I don't know, but you can only do what you can do.

Working out commands while in muzzle is also a great way to vary the training and work outs off of very active decoys.

If prudent on a public forum like this, I'd like to hear Kevin Sheldahl's ideas on out training and outs as they relate to police tactics.

Kevin, do you train your dogs to out off of an active subject?

I have the privilege of observing a trainer of police dogs as a newbie/apprentice. He says that the out had better be NOW, and it had better not matter whether or not the decoy is struggling/active/fighting or freezing......when he gives the command, it's out/off now, and not before or later. But that means for a dog almost through training. He works up to the struggling helper very slowly, giving the command as soon as the helper freezes until it's solid.

I don't get a lot of time to ask long questions, but the action tells it all, for me, for now. This board is teaching me even more, since I have to go some distance to watch the pros, and fill in with videos.

You can train and train the dog, but on the street where there are so many variables ( many of which you can not train for safely ), the outcome is never 100% certain ( that the dog will reliably out on command ).
I doubt that there's a K-9 Officer with over a year's experience that hasn't run into this at one time or the other.

One again, what happens in real life is usually different than what happens on the training field.


The trainer that comes up with a way to train for a 100% reliable out under all circumstances without having ruined the dog's ability to deliver a meaningful bite will end up a rich man.