QUOTE: I want the dog that made the mess to know that I'm not thrilled about cleaning it up, but I'm not angry either. Thus the down stay, watch me clean it up, ok, good, go play. END

I have to say that I really agree with this quote on this one: QUOTE: Maybe in her mind she is getting singled out in front of the other dogs and getting attention. I have heard any attention is better than none at all. Have you tried treating her and making a big deal out of it if she hasn't gone in the house?....... Have you tried treating her and making a BIG deal out of it when you get home and she hasn't gone in the house? END

If she had to go then she had to go. If she had been outside to go then there'd be no pile inside. Clean it up with no dog involvement at all, de-smell the spot, and praise like crazy when she goes OUTSIDE.

Ok. So I will not have them/her "participate" in cleaning.

As far as rewarding her outside - I haven't had any luck with that.

I started day one when we got her with a special food treat hidden in my pocket intending to give it to her after she went outside. When she started whining at the door, I took her out on a loose 8 foot leash in an area that had aready been used by another dog. She would start to squat, then look at me and stand up. I waited an hour the first day - it felt like 4. We went inside and as soon as I took of the leash she immediately dropped and squatted inside the front door - so I said "no" took her back outside and again, she would start to squat, then look at me, hang her head slightly and decide not to.

She's probably confused because she won't potty when we are around so we don't reward/praise her for doing in the right place. I guess it's latex gloves and vaseline time. I'd better get some steak for a reward!

Man, what in the name of heaven happened to this poor dog before you rescued her??

I think you're going to HAVE to have her outside for long enough that she has to go outside. If it takes all day then it takes all day. Then praise the heck out of her when it happens.

Punishing for something that happened even thirty seconds earlier just doesn't work. Correction has to be NOW, and I personally don't think correction is ever needed for housebreaking......but that's just me. Maybe I've lucked out. If you are the recognized pack leader, then they want to do what you want them to do.....REALLY THEY DO! If you catch them doing the wanted behavior and praise it.....then DING DING DING! It works! Hours later that pile of poop means nothing to the dogs except confusion about being gathered around it.

Connie, I only have a couple of clues as to what happened before I got her.

1. She was bred by a "backyard breeder" (in Medford area, WI) as a Greyhound and "pit bull" mix to be bred into husky sled dogs.

2. She was found as a stray by a family with children who kept her for 1 month. She was too crazy so they surrendered her to a shelter (Taylor Co Pound).

3. She was at the shelter for 1 month. The shelter lady (who is a dog and horse trainer)told me that she only got along with one dog, showed dominant behaviors. She was on a chain collar at the shelter and has trachea damge because of it.

When we went to visit we spent 2 hours interview/visit/meet the dog. In that time, she was jumping off furniture, puuling on the lead until she coughed, I don't know that she had all four feet on the ground once. I didn't like her and neither did my husband, but I thought he wanted to adopt her, and he thought I wanted to adopt her <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

4. The vet (Westgate) I took her to aged her at 4 months. When she was spayed 1 month later they (Anti-Cruelty Society) aged her at 7 months. She had escaped or was abandoned between 8 and 12 weeks.

When we got her, she layed in her mess in the crate, barked for 48 hours nonstop. We muzzled her with surgical tape because she initiated dog fights and was aggressive. She already knew how to remove a fabric muzzle. (Was she muzzled between birth and 12 weeks??) For the next week, I tethered her in my kitchen. If I was not within 2 feet of her, she barked, screamed and whined. I ignored her noise and only gave her acknowledgment, food, etc when she was quiet and still. We put her on Clomipramine to calm her behavior enough to work with her. After 19 days of 8 hours of exercise and training per day (I was not working then) she had completely changed and had learned basic obedience. We took her back to visit the shelter to show the lady that she didn't need private training lessons. Over the next 6 months she learned 40 cues - things like take a bow, piggyback ride, play leapfrog, hide under furniture, head up, head down, wave...

I started working at a boarding kennel, and she went to work with me and slept under the desk in the morning, then got to play with the other dogs in the afternoon.

When I switched jobs to the vet clinic, she started messing in the house when I leave - even if I just go outside for a couple minutes.

She is extremely expressive - if I knew how to post photos, I would! She is therapy dog now and loves to visit the nursing home and get ice cream. (She also has special permission to go to Northwoods League baseball games.) She seems to understand that her purpose in life is to sit still and get petted.

In the last year that we've had her, we've had problems with her bolting or going looking for us if we get home late. She never would potty on a leash or when we're watching - and that has presented a whole another set of problems since she hasn't been going to work with me.
Oh - and getting into stuff. I've come home and found her on top of the fridge snacking in the cupboard. She can open the medicine cabinet, open doors, jump fences, open base cabinets. As soon as she sees me she does the "I'm such a bad dog" routine - hiding under the table with her huge brown eyes showing, shaking, head down - it's so pathetic looking that it cracks me up laughing (not so good for training <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Then I'll say "I love you Abby" and she come out, sit up tall, start wagging and twitching and her eyes just sparkle.

*Sigh* I should have gotten a normal dog.

Oh, Anne, I jumped all over you with not enough background. She's NOT typical, in my own experience. (And I'm a trainer who maintains that 99.99% of dogs respond to the same basics, when the subject is general behavior!)

I read a great book a few years ago about this kind of dog, and I'll find it and get the title to you.

I do believe that all the advice about rewarding for potty-outside and no excitement or attention over accidents holds true............for the rest, I'm going to try to find that book again (written by a trainer who falls into the Cesar Millan mode -- that is, a behaviorist who thinks like a dog!), and look at some saved internet info.

That would be wonderful! Anything to make sense of it all! Thank you!

Anne: I found the book! I'm PMing you the details, incl. an index on the Amazon web site.

Can you post the book info here, or PM me it. I don't have any problems with my dog but this is an interesting thread n I'd like to know what book it is lol.

QUOTE: I don't have any problems with my dog but this is an interesting thread n I'd like to know END


Done.

When you take her out to potty, totally ignore her, be really still and look the other way. Some dogs are shy about going. Also, before you go outside say "lets go out and go potty" I always give it a name. Once she goes treat and say "good do potty". When my girl had occasional accidents and I caught her doing it I would say in a firm tone "go potty outside". I think they really catch on to this. It sounds pretty elementary but it has always worked for me.