Dear Julia,

You bought a sport dog and that's what you have. There is nothing wrong with the dog. She does exactly what a well trained SchH dog would do. Besides the dog looks very nice. I don't see why you should get rid or her. I wouln't.
Please think it twice before you train her again with your husband as the helper. Your husband might get hurt.
You need to find someone with experience in Schutzhund that will guide you and who can be your helper. You have a trained dog, that's a very big advantage, but you could ruin the training she has if you do things wrong.
JMHO, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Pedro.

Pedro,

I think you and I were posting at the same time because I just admitted in my post above yours that we would discontinue the bite work until we find a solid trainer for the very concerns you shared. We don't want to mess her up with our lack of experience.

Last night was a just to see for our selves what she would do or not do… and I thought her reaction was right on.

Julia,
I was more concerned about your husband's safety. Working a SchH dog with no protection equipment on is not a good idea, especially if you have no experience. Accidents happen in SchH and a helper should be aware of that.
Having a trained dog is a good advantage because she can teach you a lot as a handler, and can teach your husband too if he wants to be a helper, but, as you say, always under the supervision of an experienced instructor.
Good luck with your dog.
Pedro.

Well I am please to say as a result of this post and several private messages... I have determined without a doubt this “trainer” is a idiot and is well known in the business as an idiot. I also had the good fortune to find a several people who are willing to help in training her/me. I am VERY EXCITED. One of the trainers actually met my dog several months ago as we observed a PT class a week after she arrived from Germany, and though it was a casual meeting he reminded me that he thought she was a fine dog… he also knows the trainer that called her a piece of shit and he had not much good to say about him.

I just feel bad for all his other victims. How many hearts has he broken and dog have been put down under his advice. I am just sickend by the thought.

UPDATE:

I had the great pleasure of attending the Maine Schutzhund trial in Gorham, Maine today under the Judging of Raino Fluegge, GSSCC/SV. I shared with the group the death sentence I received after Chris Fraize of Canine Solutions evaluated my dog and recommended I euthanize her. I also shared the videos posted in my initial post with some of the head members of the Schutzhund club. Not one person can fathom how he came to the conclusion that my dog was a “piece of shit” and should die.

After the trial was over Raino Fluegge, GSSCC/SV tested my dog separately and he said I had a very fine dog. He said he put more pressure on her then normal and that she had a hard firm bite and only backed off slightly under extra pressure but was nothing of alarm. He repeated several times... "You have a fine dog." She is a fine dog."

I explained that the trainer had asked me to command her to pass auf during the evaluation, which he expected her to attack him. Raino said that is a German term not commonly used in Schutzhund but that it means nothing more then "watch" it is not a command to attack or bite like Chris suggested it to mean.

This is a true testament that there are some absolutely horrible people out there that actually call themselves “trainers” It would have been one thing if he just said… you have a lousy dog… but to tell me this dog is a piece of shit and should be euthanized and never be breed… bearing in mind she is a SchH3, KKL1… is absolutely reckless and yeah… I am p*ssed off. Not just because he said it about my dog… I just wonder how many other dogs have been killed because of him. I have received several private messages and talked with a couple locals that have had similar experiences with him.

What can be done to stop and idiot like this? What can I do to save the life of another dog?

I know Raino and can tell you he is one of the most difficult judges to Trial under. He is fair, but brutally honest in his evaluations and one of the more "strict" judges in terms of what he wants to see from the dog, especially as the dog progresses from club, to regional and then national levels.

In my opinion, he is also one of the best evaluators in the world. He is one of those rare people that has literally worked so many thousands of dogs in protection (as a helper) that he can almost completely see what a dog has inside after just a few minutes.

If Raino says you have a good dog, take him exactly at his word.

I'm really looking forward to another one of his seminars in the spring.

This was emailed to me from the trainer that conducted the test on the dog. He does not have a "login name" on this board. I do not agree or disagree with his reply just simpling posting it for him so the board can hear his side of the story. Again I am just a middle man.

Matt Hammond



Hello all,



I understand that people reading text over the Internet have the tendency to add a “tone” to what they are reading. I am not yelling or angry at any point during this post. I post here to help a confused novice person try to understand something that has the potential to become extremely dangerous.



First let me say that I am a fan of Mr. Frawley’s. I started my dog-training career with Mr. Bruce Billings Schutzhund club just outside of Boston. I have trained and done helper work with Mr. Lance Woodley and Mr. Ron Marshall both national Schutzhund competitors. I apprenticed with Mr. Norbet Safko (from the Czech republic) and at that had the pleasure of meeting (though I doubt she would remember) Ms. Debbie Zappia and her dog. I have also worked in Ringsport with Mr. Bob Dixon (former North American Ringsport Association. president), and now have as a friend and client Ms. Debbie Seymour (First person to title to Ring III in North America.)



I have worked and decoyed for many of Ms. Cheryl Carlson’s dogs (Another former N.A.R.A. president.) I have decoyed for Champion and Vice Champion ringsport dogs, Schutzhund dogs, K.N.P.V. dogs and Mondioring dogs. I have had the pleasure of working with Mr. Francis Metcalf and have worked N.A. Ring III vice Champion “Terbeaux”. I am a certified decoy with the now defunct National Association of Protection Dogs (N.A.P.D.), K-9 Pro Sports and have won the (very tough) Dog Sports Open Decoy competition under Mr. Art O’Keefe (Mr. O’Keefe founded the western states police K-9 Association in 1966) I am also a K-9 Pro sports judge. I have trained and sold Police K-9, personal protection and sport dogs for many years. I have much more experience than is listed here. A resume is available upon request.



I do not state the above information to impress anyone. In fact there are many people that have done much more in dog training. I state this information to simply give you an idea of the background of the person evaluating the dog in question.



On 11/2/05 Ms. Julia Thompson and her husband came for a personal protection evaluation of her dog Marsha (GSD). We sat down and chatted for a while. During that conversation Ms. Thompson stated,” I got this dog to protect my family and me. We have had threats made against us and I am worried that someone might act on those threats. I have children. I run a home based business and it is the type of business that would make the wrong sort of people want to break into my home.”



At the evaluation I sat and talked with her for over an hour (I spent over three hours with her in total.) before ever testing the dogs capability for personal protection. We talked about how she acquired this dog. On a number of occasions she brought up the fact that she purchased the dog as a personal protection dog. She told me that she paid $8000.00 for her and that she was a German import. She also said that she met the importer at Logan International airport then she was given a list of German commands and they parted ways.



I asked her what her level of understanding was as it pertains to dog training and Schutzhund in particular. She stated she was a pre-novice. At that time I expressed to her that it would be tough for a Schutzhund dog to make the jump to straight personal protection without training. Ms. Thompson agreed.



I began the evaluation with my assistant holding the leash while I (from across the room) picked up a sleeve from the floor. I also had a whip in my right hand. At the first crack of the whip (from over 20 feet away) the dog blew an anal gland and retreated behind my assistant. I stopped the evaluation for the moment to express to Ms. Thompson that that wasn’t a good thing. (Please remember that I am under the impression that this dog was sold to Ms. Thompson as a personal protection dog. While I understand that the dog is a recent import SchH III.) At this point I asked Ms. Thompson to join my assistant and post up and hold the dog. I did this to make the dog feel more secure. I asked my assistant to remain next to Ms. Thompson to coach her as she stated she was a sub novice.



After we talked a bit I went over to the dog and offered a quick bite (In prey) to let the dog win. There was no need to ruin the dog totally the point had been made. The dog would not bite and went into defense hair up, teeth showing. I was working in prey at this point. Now, in fairness I am a big person. I am 6’4” and 275 lbs. However, working with the limited pressure I was applying, a Schutzhund III dog at the price of $8000.00 should have done better in my opinion.



I ended the bite work by giving the dog a bite. It took some time. But I wanted the dog to end on a win.



Ms. Thompson and I spoke some more and She asked me what I thought. I stated that in the pattern of Schutzhund the dog probably does fine. However, taken out of the sport venue, the dog did not have the courage or the training that would be needed if a “real life situation” ever arose. Keeping in mind that she has stated that threats have been made against her and her family and that she was worried that someone might act on these threats.



She asked me what the next step was. I advised her to contact the importer and see if he would buy the dog back or find a sport buyer for the dog. She then asked, “What would you do if you were in my shoes?” I stated that if this was the dog that my family depended on for real protection… I would put her down. In hind site, perhaps it was too much of an honest statement for Ms. Thompson to handle. On the other hand she paid for an honest opinion and she got one. I never yelled at her. I was extremely courteous and polite. I also told her BEFORE the evaluation that I would not be able to sell her a personal protection dog if the evaluation did not work out because I felt it would be a conflict of interest. Too many trainers make good dogs look bad just so they can sell an unsuspecting novice a dog and make a quick buck.



When Ms. Thompson was putting the dog up, her husband conveyed to me that Ms. Thompson jumps into things before she really understands what is going on. He stated that he thought she was in way over her head with the dog. I told him that everyone has to start somewhere and to try to be supportive.



At the end of the evaluation Ms. Thompson attempted to pay me $60.00. I told her three times that the evaluation was only $25.00. She stated that she wanted to pay more because the service had been so good. She left $60.00 on my desk. Ms. Thompson and her husband left without incident.



The next day Ms. Thompson emailed me some videos of her and her husband (hearing impaired and disabled) Cracking a whip and agitating the dog. The dog was doing better (more comfortable in her own back yard with a helper she wasn’t threatened by.)

I sent an email back as quickly as possible it simply stated DON’T DO THAT!

I followed my email with a phone call. On the phone I tried to explain why this was a bad idea. She didn’t seem to want my opinion any longer and believed she was seeing a different dog.



I tried to express my concern over and over again. She didn’t seem to understand. I ended the phone conversation by stating that she needed to have a deeper understanding of training, dog behavior and helper work so that she might understand why this backyard bite work was a bad idea on so many levels.



A few days later Ms. Thompson sent me an email stating that she had the dog evaluated by a Schutzhund judge at a Schutzhund trial. The dog seemed to be nothing like I evaluated. She met another trainer at the trail that told her I was dishonest and that I did not know what I was doing. (Imagine that! A trainer telling someone that the other trainer has no idea what he or she is doing! LOL) She also told me that she posted on Mr. Frawley’s board. A friend told me that I was being attacked and emailed me the link to the site. I told him that trainers attack trainers on message boards all the time. It really was not a big deal.



Based on Ms. Thompson’s accounts she seemed to get some good opinions and advice from most of the board members.



I post because I am a professional dog trainer with a fundamental respect and love of dogs. I thought that hearing the events from the trainer’s point of view might help the message board members give Ms. Thompson some sound advice.



Thank you for the opportunity to tell you about this evaluation.



Safe training,

Chris Fraize

Canine Solutions Training Services

http://www.k9sts.com

1) She is hyper sensitive and startles very easily to noise and sudden contact. This afternoon she was sitting at my feet and when I dropped a pen…. She jumped up yapping like I had seriously hurt her. We have never owned a GSD before, not to mention a Schh3 dog. I just find this out of character based on her training. Please correct me if I am wrong.
2) An infection wouldn't make a sound dog run from a pen dropping, so I would probably make arrangements to send the dog back.

This was the first post I remember you writing, and my response. You had her 6 days at this point. Something to think about.

Sometimes it's really easy to make a judgement before listening to both sides to a story.

It's true that a well trained and titled dog can teach a novice hanlder a few things and make them look better at what they are doing. For myself, I wouldn't ever consider buying a dog that was already trained. For many reasons.
As for Julia, If she spent 8,000 dollars for a dog, purchased a whip and sleeve, seems money is not the problem. She could have saved a bunch of money, bought a good puppy from Ed, purchased ALL of his videos, saved a ton of money, and learned a great deal more in the process.

Julia- Thanks for posting your videos, I'd love to see more in the future. I know it's already been said, but you really must becareful with any training that involves biting or aggression. Your husband is not the person you want that dog to see as the enemy. You could have opened pandora's box, the future holds the answer to that one. In watching the second video you posted, it looked like your husband almost took a shot to upper body. Seemed too close for comfort. I noticed quite a bit of slack in the leash and your husband was moving closer, then the dog went in for a bite, just missed. (this is how it appeared)

You should know that skilled trainers/helpers and handler, have a game plan before they go out training. They also know exactly how much distance they have between the dogs teeth and thier body parts.

Hope all goes well, good luck and becareful.

I have admitted on this board in several posts and to Chris Fraize that I made some fundamental assumptions and mistakes when I bought this dog. I was told “Schutzhund” means protection dog… so I assumed if I bought a shuctzhund dog I was getting a protection dog. I figured the higher the title… the more stable it would be in temperament and skill, which is probably true to some degree. I also soon found out when the dog arrived that I had no idea what to do with this dog… even from the simplest commands. She came with her papers and that was it, which brought me here to the lereburg board for learning.

I have a good dog… who has a crappy trainer. I have no qualms admitting my shortcomings. I went to Chris to help me learn how to work with the dog…

To tell someone there beloved dog is a piece of shit and should be eternized and never breed because she is a coward and will pass this trait to her pups… it way out of line after one visit with the dog. He told me… “if that were my dog I would take her out back and shoot her myself” I have since learned from private messages… that Chris is an APBT breeder… which helps me understand why he praised the heck out of my aggressive dog who tired to bit him 3 times while trying to down him and condemned the dog that wouldn’t bite.

I also told Chris my dog is very guarded of me and when we go out in public if a stranger approaches she always puts herself between me and the stranger. She is never aggressive just alert. I felt my dog was trying to cover two bases. She had Chris coming at her from the front and Megan Standing behind me.

The fact is she is not a piece of shit. I trust the schutzhund evaluation of her. She is a schutzhund dog… and shutzhund is what I want to learn and do with the dog. It has been my agenda since I joined this board. It is listed in my Bio and Riddled thought all my posts. I have bought all Eds schutzhund training videos and not even a SINGLE personal protection video. This should clearly represent my intentions. Chris… took it upon himself to evaluate my dog for personal protection, which was not why I was there.

This is my last email to chris:

 Quote:

The fact that you took the time to prepare a well thought response is appreciated. It is now my opinion that there were some fundamental misunderstandings from the starting gate. When I called to set up the training I was looking for someone to help “ME” (not so much the dog) learn how to train this SchH3 dog that I had imported that came with no instructions and had no clue what to do with. I was looking more for training and guidance on my part rather then actual training for the dog per say.


The whole purpose of the evaluation was not to determine if she was cut out of protection work. I had hoped that might come later… but I fully intended to work this dog in schutzhund before proceeding with anything else. All I wanted was to learn how to work with her. To see for myself what this dog already knows and work from there.


If I am understanding you correctly… I believe you think I came to you for the sole and only purpose of working this dog for protection work… and honestly that was not my intentions although the initial reason that motivated me to buy her was with the hope that she would be a loyal and loving family member who would lay her life down if the need arose… it was not my purpose for coming to you. I was looking for someone to train me how to work with her in her sport and learn how to train her to do other things as I am not a person that has a clue what to do with a dog of this caliber.


I respect Ed Frawley and according to his teachings…. There is a rule of 30. The dog has to be shown what to do at least 30 times before it knows what you want. My dog is a Schutzhund dog and I just don’t think she knew what you wanted. Maybe some dogs like Ozzy would have instinctively bitten you… but that scares the hell out of me as he is clearly a dog out of control in my opinion.


I have talked with a few people about PW and I have yet had one person tell me a Schtzhund dog will do protection work right out of the box with no additional training. You weren’t training Marsha… You were expecting Marsha to anticipate what you wanted.


I have no more anger… I have let it go and given it to my higher power. Like I said… I was so excited to find you and disappointed with the way things turned out… but after reading your response I think there were some fundamental misunderstandings. If you are a member of Leerburg read my bio and read some of my prior posts… you will clearly see that I have and was just looking for someone to help me learn how to work with my Schtzhund dog and then…. Maybe protection, but knowing her foundation has been my primary priority. Understanding how my dog thinks has been my primary priority. Learning how to be a good handler has been my primary priority. Learning how to administer correction and reward in a constructive way has been my primary priority.


This is one post that clearly defines my agenda: The title of the post nearly says it all.



http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showf...rue#Post4153410


I will chalk it up as a misunderstanding and let it go at that.

Have a great day and good luck to you.