Hello!

...i'm new here too,though not to GSDs. i do have a DDR as my service dog-she was a "washout" from SchH,i'm told,and so was sold. I didn't have the choosing of her-she was a gift to me by my SD group,who "wanted me to have the best dog they could find". well,she is without a doubt the most intelligent dog i have ever owned or trained,lighting fast learner,but she is also the highest octaine dog i have ever had...not something i can really cope with easily at this point in my life,though i would have killed to have had her about 20 years ago! <g> she has an incredible energy level,i have literally never seen her tired,not even the night that i ran her around the back yard with a pointer for two hours while talking to someone! she also is incredibly strong-i have,among other disabilities,a balance problem,and she hauls me up any stairs we encounter,then turns to look at me with the expression,"that was fun! lets go down so i can do it again!" i'm trying to train her to pull my wheelchair,but we haven't quite gotten the knack of it yet.

...what i am trying to illustrate is that while DDRs are the Formula One of GSDs,not everyone would be able to cope with them. while i have had GSDs all my life,i was totally unprepared for this pint sized atom bomb of a dog,to put it mildly. now,we know each other,and it would be very hard to rehome her,but i wanted very much to send her back,two years ago,to replace her with a mellower dog. she practically crackles with energy,when what i really need is a dog who is calmer. she has a minor problem that i think stems from her being taken out of SchH training (another issue i need to ask about elsewhere),which,paired with her high energy level,makes her look spooky or shy at times....not good for the public perception of service dogs.

i don't know how many others have DDRs as SDs,but i do know that at least one guide dog program has dogs of DDR lines-Fidelco Guide Dogs won't use any American lines at all,i'm told,and i know that some of my girl Anja's half sisters are broods for them. the school likes the work ethic and stamina that comes with a correctly bred dog,and feels there are no others to compair for their needs....i agree...now,if i could just tone her down a bit! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

...hope i helped a bit...

Hi Gail,

You've got me curious. Pint-sized <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />??? That's a problem I don't have!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If you have a small one, be thankful! Imagine the stubborness/strength supersized! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, the trait that you're saying is seen as a little spooked or shy seems to be fairly common in these lines. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I have heard different theories about this, but some say that they're just more serious dogs by design (remember their purpose and duty) and that in turn makes them seem "aloof" to strangers, and only warm to the handler. Mine is absolutely like that, and several others as well. Not fearful so much as just disinterested. I can see where maybe that's a GOOD thing for a service dog. It should be focused on YOU-not the dog across the street or the 20 other things to distract it from doing it's job safely. I'd be interested in talking more if you want to PM me. Do you know what lines she's out of?

....her lines are Troll,Fero,Gildo Korbelbach,Mink,Crok and Gent,according to her old web page (don't have her pedigree scanned in,so i don't remember it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. one littermate is a DEA sniffer,i think,if i remember correctly. Her sire was Troldbjerg Robbin,her dam Hausjolles Elsie.

i say she is pint sized,compared to all the other GSDs i have had,which were either German show lines,British,or an old American movie stunt dog line (Major Wolf). she is only about 25 in. at the shoulder,tiny compared to the others-we actually thought she was a pup when we opened the crate at the airport,though we knew she was 18 months at the time. of course she is much smaller than my greyhound and our son's rough collie service dog-when she is in a hurry,she usually either just runs under them,or jumps them!

what you say about DDR temperment is interesting-tell me more! what she does that really bothers me is that when confronted with something that startles her,or she is unsure of (always people-she was a kennel dog,so she doesn't care for little kids and their poky hands,but tolerats it,for instnace) she either freezes to look it over or worst case,flinches and wants to stay where she is to watch whoever it is that bothered her. ***NO*** signs of aggression ever,just leery and standoffish,and would prefer to detour around that person by about 10 feet (that seems to be about her comfort zone for that kind of thing,where she will work easily,while keeping a weather eye on them till we are past.)

now,i do know she reacts like this to people who are afraid of dogs-a real problem for me,because the clinic i go to has a nurse and a receptionist there who don't like her and are uneasy with her,so i had a note put in my chart to warn these people when i am coming in for an appointment. her reaction to this situation is to want to stay clear of them,but no more-as i said,detour,or stop till they have moved away,but when necessary,she will pass them,slowly and watching them,then go to a normal working pace,if a bit hurried as if she is relieved she is past them. she is bombproof as far as any possibility of panic or startle snaps-i had a graphic proof of that last month! we were at a *very* crowded Walmart,and i was using one of the store scooters. we were sitting and waiting for my husband,at the end of a bench with two silk bushes at the end,and Anja was between me and the bushes on a down,where she could watch the world go by,but not be in the way of being stepped on...i thought! a family with a herd of little kids under 10 passed us,and somehow one of them tripped and managed to fall at right angles to her path,and fell full lenght on top of Anja,dropping a nearly full bottle of coke right on her muzzle on the way down!!Anja leaped to her feet as soon as the kid got off,backed off a step,and stared in shock at the kid who had just belted her on the nose with a bottle,then squashed her...but no more! and she wasn't even really upset afterward,though she kept a real watch on any other little kids we came near! so proud of her that day!

its just really embarrasing when we are trucking along,and she suddenly doesn't want to pass someone without a detour or a really good look. she is getting better about it,as time passes,but i can never really predict when she will do it,except that i know she doesn't like going to the reception window at the clinic when there are people sitting in the seats nearest it...i put that down partly to people being nervous about being there,and then being startled about a "police dog" there. (around here,the PDs use DDRs and Mals...she is often taken for one of them).

That is not aloof, those are bad nerves. FYI: Fidelco has their own internal breed program. It always blows my mind when I see people that can not look at their own dogs with out being biased. I think DDR dogs look nice. I have yet to see one today with good prey drive and clear head in work. Most of the ones I have seen are soft, very small level of prey drive, extremly large with some aggression and lack intensity. They come off flat.

...is your comment about nerves in refereince to Anja,my dog? and about not being able to look at folks not being able to look at their own dogs without bias? i appreciate constructive comment,which that wasn't...if i were biased,i would be saying the is the best SD in the world,and closing my eyes to her flaws,rather than asking for opinions and constructive help with fixing them.

as i said,i did not have the choosing of her,nor her purchase. if i had,i would have returned her at once for acting spooky and flinchy as hell-this is not a trait i like or have accepted in any dog of mine in almost 40 years of working with GSDs. but when you are very ill at the time,and always far below the poverty level,you cannot always be in a position to do what you would prefer. we could not afford to return her,the trainer insisted there was nothing wrong with her,and the woman who bought her for me was hugely hurt because she thought i was rejecting an extremely expensive gift. i was aware of this dogs good and bad points from the beginning-but when you are in a position of not having any other choice,you work with what you have.

i am not positive that it is a matter of bad nerves in her case,because she is totally bombproof in every other way. because of things the trainer mentioned,and from things i see in her actions,i have a suspicion that something happened while she was being bite trained,that perhaps someone might have lost their temper with her,and she became spooky as a result. also,i don't think she had been socialised properly-i gather she was strictly kennelraised and never a house dog,so unused to flittering little kids. she has made huge progress in steadying down,and if i was able to get out more often,i think she would be over it. but i think i am pretty clear eyed about her good and bad points-otherwise,i would have gone ahead with the plans that had been made to set up a breeding for her,rather than putting off people who are asking for her pups....one idea behind her selection was that if she panned out well as an SD was that we would breed and start pups that tested out as SDIT possibilities,and give those to folks who need this kind of dog,and sell the others to screened homes. i have done none of the preperatory work for all that,because i have not decided that she is worthy of breeding...something i will not do unless i can stand behind her 100%. besides, i'm not sure that many disabled folks could handle this lil package of dynamite's pups,if they had her need to be constantly active and worked all day. this is possibly another reason she seems to be flinchy sometimes,and not at others-that she has too much energy bottled up,and is too keyed up. it happens with horses,and i have seen over and over that once she has been out working for a couple hours she has worked off the initial edge and has settled in just fine....still not likeing to be petted,but calmly accepting of people close to her reacing for her,or over her head in stores,etc. i don't know if this is a case of nerves,or,as things seem to be indicating,a reaction to something that happened that was not addressed at the time,but rather they just cut their losses and sold her instead of working with the problem they had caused. ....whatever. i have this dog,and it is up to be to do what i can with her,because this is the "hand i have been dealt". so i am here,hoping for that those with experience can help me smooth this out. unlike those with dogs who are training for SchH,your daily lives do not depend on your dogs,and you all tend to have more freedom to pick and choose what dogs you keep or sell....options i do not have. she is what i have,and to look at the big picture,she is an outstanding working dog,fantastic ethics,enthusiasm for work,loves it,tireless,strong....everything i need just about,but who has this one flaw that comes and goes....

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....her lines are Troll,Fero,Gildo Korbelbach,Mink,Crok and Gent,according to her old web page

Those aren't DDR lines. Troll, Fero, Gildo, Mink & Crok are West German working lines. Gent is Czech.

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Her sire was Troldbjerg Robbin,her dam Hausjolles Elsie.

The Troldbjerg kennel spits out some pretty intense dogs, no wonder she's high energy.

I apologize, Gent looks to be half DDR!

Totally different lines from my boy. Chet-why would a person want a high prey drive service dog? Wheelchair races as they chase squirrels down the street <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />? Or did I totally misread your post? I'm not being argumentative; I'm really curious to see if that's truly what you meant <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Who were you saying has weak nerves specifically-besides all DDR dogs? I have a hard time with gross generalizations. Are you saying that a dog has to behave like a dim-witted golden retriever, tongue lolling around, licking strangers, to have good nerves? Why do our dogs have to have interest in other people? They're OUR dogs. There are exceptions to every rule, and often times, a few bad apples will get more publicity than the more positive norm.

This country seems to have an obsession with sporting dogs with crazy play/prey drive, high enough that they can't live inside a house, and a dog that comes out in defense, or real prey, is seen as lazy or possessing weak nerves. Each kind serves a purpose, and it sounds like despite all, Gail's dog is serving hers.

I'm sorry; my dog is aloof (if that's who you were speaking of). Only way to describe him. He doesn't run when someone goes to pet him. He just acts like he has autism. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Tons of drive for REAL prey; not a bunch for a stranger with a ball on a string. Me with a ball and a string, maybe. But only in the house when it's PLAYtime.

I have had him evaluated by several trainers. This is not just my (admittedly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> biased opinion. This is what "experts" have told me about my dog. I would say, in my humble opinion, that a ball on a string has more to do with play than prey anyhow. Real prey drive is not a game. It's ugly, really. And quite serious. I think it's difficult to assess dogs one has never met over the internet, based on a few comments, and your own assessment of a heritage. But then again, I'm not an expert.

Chet-just reread your post. Were you saying that the traits Gail explained in her second post were NOT aloof, but weak nerves, or were you saying that none of them are aloof, and they're all weak-nerved, and this is the only cause of the disinterest. I was referring to disinterest, not fearful suspicion. If this is what you meant, I hope you don't see my last post as jumping down your throat. I'm just wondering...truly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, basically because of Baron's size and build, I don't want to do a lot of jumping with him. This is my primary, well only, reason for not schutzhund training him. His drive is great - we had to work on it initially but now there's no doubt in my mind that he would do schutzhund, but for speed and the jumping, he is very large boned, and seems to be hovering at about 97+ lbs; for schutzhund I'd probably have to drop him to 85 lbs but everytime I take weight off of him his hip bones stick out like a starving horse.

The more I research schutzhund, the more I like protection training better (I've had 3 protection trained gsds previously) - unless you just want to compete for the fun of the sport - which is what it is - a sport - and that's the difference between schutzhund and protection. Protection is practical application training, protect you in your car, your house, walking down the street, jump out from behind a tree, etc. Schutzhund is for sport. A lot of the time people will title their dog in sch then cross train in protection. I was thinking about doing this with Baron, but since my female Ali is sooooo drivey, her personality is geared towards sch and so I'm going to title her then I"ll cross train her in protection after she's titled - don't know if we'll make it to a III but we'll see.
(she's east german/czech)

Baron is pretty aloof like the DDR in Dargo, but after harnessing him up to a tree on a lunge line and teasing him with his bite pillow - he woke up and cam unglued. Now he is full blown protection training.