I have been following this thread and must say it has made for some great reading. The differing opinions on training motivators and preferable drives in the dogs is fascinating; especially coming from so many knowledgeable people.

For what it is worth this is my take. Everyone is right in their opinion of what is preferable in drives and the methods to achieve their goals. Because I am going to make the assumption (very brave of me ) that the dogs you work make you feel good. Whether they are prey monsters or serious steadfast workers or pack motivated etc. How the dog touches us intrinsically is what forms our opinions about the ideal dog and the best way to motivate them. I think we seek out the kinds of dogs who fulfill us.

Years ago I worked at an airport and would assist the K9 new recruits with setting up training scenarios and simple socialization exercises. I did not train nor would I consider that my strength. What I think they came to me for was my observation skills and ability to problem solve when it came to communication between trooper and dog. The dogs and the troopers ran the gamet of personalities.

The dogs that would work for a tug were the best. The dogs that would work for a ball were the best. You know the best dogs were food motivated. The praise driven dogs rocked. Those who worked for their handler were wonderful and you couldn't beat the ones who worked for the love of the work.

In other words after initial training in Texas; they brought their new charges to the airport and had 3 months to get the dog acclimated and working before they could be certified. There was no one way which was better just better for the particular team. My goal was to help them get there and it was more about balance between the dog and handler than temperment of the individuals.

So to the OP if head shaking and growling in bite work accomplished the working goal; it's all good

Wow this thread took on a life of its own!

One other thing Jenni's dogese is very similar to my fathers and he likes the same kind of dog! From one of the best handlers I have never known I hope his words make sense of what she was saying and I hope I read you correctly Jenni.

"A dog is not trained until the work becomes the reward."

Sounds simple but it won't work for everyone or feel satisfying depending on your personality and what it is you are looking for in a relationship with your dog.

 Quote: sheila buckley

One other thing Jenni's dogese is very similar to my fathers and he likes the same kind of dog! From one of the best handlers I have never known I hope his words make sense of what she was saying and I hope I read you correctly Jenni.

"A dog is not trained until the work becomes the reward."

Sounds simple but it won't work for everyone or feel satisfying depending on your personality and what it is you are looking for in a relationship with your dog.

I haven't been able to post in a couple days and now I'm too far behind, but I just read your post, and Sheila, I'd love to hear more about your dad's experience. Interesting quote. Thanks for sharing that.

The last statement is something that I have been trying to express and I don't think it can be overemphasized. "It," whatever that may be, must fit your personality and come off as genuine. Our dogs read us as much or more (probably way more!) as we read them. Do what works best for you and "feels" right for you and your dog. You can't be "wrong" if you do that. Keep an open mind that what feels right might not end up being what you've always assumed or been taught is right.

Ok, so I needed a little break from the topic to gather my thoughts...Read the whole 20 pages,lol, yesterday and I had to go straight to bed, dizzy from so much info...GOOD Info. Thanks to all who contributed.

I think the following is an interesting perspective on raising/training dogs. I can't remember where I read it, but it goes something like this....

There is or was a military base somewhere, I believe here in the US. Their program consisted of giving puppies (I'm assuming they were promising pups not just any ordinary ones) to homes( pre-qualified homes I'm sure), basically to raise the pup for the first two years of the pups life. At the age of two the military personel or what not, would then go evaluate the dogs and determine if they (the dogs), could then be trained and used as military working dogs.

So what this means to me is .... obviously the "program" saw value in raising a pup til two years old in a family environment, where it would be socialized to all sorts of noises, people and basically normal, common everyday occurances and life, without any sort of service dog training. They also felt like they could train a 2 year old dog to do whatever kind of Service work was needed without any previous "foundation work"!

I think the socializing WAS the foundation work(for the nerves maybe)...after all, the dog can use his/her own Natural Thought Processes to evaluate a situation and sort out the easy stuff. Loud noises possibly of pans in the kitchen, babies crying, possibly family arguements or what not and begin to distinguish loud noises or behavior withing the family from a threatening life or death situation. The dog will be able to "draw" from his/her past experience to look a the "work" in a more intellectual or mature way perhaps and therefore take it more seriously. (Just my thoughts)

I've heard helpers and trainers and other stories of how dogs without any previous training or foundation work have turned into excellent dogs. My pups mom is one of those, that got her Sch I, II, and III at about 2.5 years of age. It seems to me like many people push and push and push their young pups to be this and that and quickly without letting the pup be normal. Without a normal puppy life. After all that's the way "We do things now a days in the high tech world or overachieving mindset." This Military Program thought different.

On a different but similar note...I read somewhere else, I believe they were older, experienced trainers who said...the dog(refering to the GSD) who is raised by its family and lead to have a "normal" family life is the dog more likely to defend his/her pack (handler, owner, family) to the death. As opposed to a sport trained dog, or a sport dog....can't remember all the details but it parallels the "Military Programs'(mentioned above) insight into this behavior or characteristic or truth, perhaps.

And one last thing... I recently read a quote from a newsletter that said this........

“Anything a dog can learn on his own is more effective and better understood than what humans can force on the dog.” – Randy Hare

So with that I leave you all to ponder...
Again thanks to all the contributors.

I disagree, I think prey is extremly important. I also know that prey is inexhaustable in some dogs, i have one here, she'll keep going till she died, she can't help it, LOVE high drive dogs!

The whole "real" dog thing, blah blah blah, probably 98% of peoples dogs aren't "real" and the other 2% have learned to train and manage their dog,

So 'serious' is a 'trained response' via operant conditioning?

Is that what you're saying?

No, i'm saying it's all the dog

So your dog isn't serious/real about prey?

Or do you have one of those in the 2% dogs?

Ray-
The reason the military wanted to wait until two is because their training is conducted in compulsion and defense.
If you try that with a dog under two- the failure rate is 100%.
Over two, the failure rate is lower.

They don't use much prey or positive reinforcement.

"So your dog isn't serious/real about prey?" Not sure what this means?


No, i don't own a dog that falls in the 2% catagory of a "real" dog, it may be even lower than 2%

Then by your own definition your dog doesn't have enough prey.
Prey is a survival drive.
And prey does exhaust itself.....for survival....to hunt another day.