Quote: Connie Sutherland

Big ditto to this being over the owner's head (I mean without help).

As Anne already said, "dominant and aggressive" .... these aren't really adjectives to apply via the internet.. JMO! These are adjectives that, once stated, follow a dog (to the dog's detriment) whether they are apt or not.

Strong dogs of all breeds can and do challenge a weak leader (or any leader) as they grow. In this situation, the leader allowed the dog to "win."

That's a huge problem to me (JMO), but not necessarily a reason to label this young dog dominant and aggressive.

Now this needs an in-person, not an internet, eval. Willie will agree, I feel sure.

All JMO. (And again, D and A or just strong and testing a power-grab, this is still a situation the owner can't fail to address, and now, with in-person help.)

Again, all JMO! Not a LGB expert.

WOW -- I did not mean to step on anyone's toes here, so my sincere apologies, if I spoke out of line on this topic ... Perhaps Ziva is more "Passive & Submissive" than many of her actions tend to indicate (???) But she has actually been displying behaviors which her owner is ill-equipped to anticipate timely & unprepared to counter properly in the moment.

It is not my intention to criticize Solange's excellent efforts NOR to mis-label Ziva's temperament & drive issues -- My only concern is the ultimate SAFETY of both Dog & Owner ... I cannot help but worry that both the human & the canine are drifting into increasingly dangerous waters.

I am 100% with Anne Jones' observation that this is exactly how many a good dog ends up being PTS (even despite the owner's wishes & quite beyond their control, if a third party happens to be injured) -- When a bite incident gets reported (not talking about Ziva just any dog) the authorities never split hairs over drive or temperament differences & terminology debates ... But if I am inadvertently muddying the waters on this thread, then I will withdraw from the discussion, and simply follow along in silent mode

You didn't step on my toes. And I think everyone agrees that the owner needs in-person help, asap.

No, my only point was that I hear "dominant" and "dominant aggressive" used a LOT. To me, a truly dominant dog is rare. Very rare, in fact. And to me, it's not a label to be used based on an internet-message eval. JMO!

To me, saying a dog is not one of the rare true dominant dogs is not saying she or he is passive and submissive. ( QUOTE: "Perhaps Ziva is more "Passive & Submissive" than many of her actions tend to indicate.")

I think DA is wildly overused. JMO, though, and my toes are not stepped on.


ETA
This is a terminology thing.

But labeling a dog DA will follow the dog to a shelter, a foster, a potential new home, and I want to be right before I say it. Maybe it's right, but we don't know that from here, if I use my definition(s).

Still JMO!



Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/11/2013 01:58 PM)
Edit reason: eta

PS

In no way was I trying to shut down the thread.

It's terminology.

My post about true dominance, something I think a few, just a very few, dogs are born to be, is just my opinion and a matter of what (IMO) is an overused term.

JMO!

 Quote: Candi Campbell

... My only concern is the ultimate SAFETY of both Dog & Owner ... I cannot help but worry that both the human & the canine are drifting into increasingly dangerous waters. I am 100% with Anne Jones' observation that this is exactly how many a good dog ends up being PTS ...

Agreed.

"And again, D and A or just strong and testing a power-grab, this is still a situation the owner can't fail to address, and now, with in-person help."

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

PS

In no way was I trying to shut down the thread.

It's terminology.

My post about true dominance, something I think a few, just a very few, dogs are born to be, is just my opinion and a matter of what (IMO) is an overused term.

JMO!

I take no issue with anything you're saying here, Connie

My understanding of & perspective on Dominance versus Submission and Aggression versus Passivity is that they are often Fluid & Relative in different situations with various participants -- Think of the "medium" pups in a litter that display Submission toward siblings which are more Dominant than they are, while showing Dominance toward littermates which are more Submissive than they are, and the same applies to Aggression versus Passivity in changing situations ... Thus from my POV, Dog A may "act out" Dominantly and/or Aggressively toward Handler B, but that SAME dog might "act out" Submissively and/or Passively toward Handler C (which is the underlying reason for choosing the "right" dog for the "right" Job/Home).

I believe all of us are in Basic Agreement for the most part

This thread is SOOOO interesting.

I can't help but wonder, what will happen when Ziva has to go to the vet?

Can they handle it?

Hi everyone. Sry for my absence but I have been really busy with life. What little extra time I have had I have been spending with Solange on skype.
Ziva has been to the vet with no problems. She has been around strangers and bikes and joggers and people on the walks with no major problems. There was a two DAY blip where she was showing too much prey drive at cars and a bike I think, and we handled it and have had no more problems.
Her and Solange's progress has been fantastic in these few weeks that they have been working together.
Having observed Ziva quite a bit via the videos and web cam i would NOT label her as a dominant aggressive dog at all.
Her puppy test did not indicate this and her behavior since has not.
SHe has dominant tendencies, and will always be one to push the boundaries whenever she can, but I would NOT classify her as D/A in the sense that the majority of the people here use the term.
She is only 6 months old and if I felt that she was D/A I would have Solange ship her back to the breeder and hope for the best for Ziva.......
Having dominant tendencies is FAR different than a serious behavior issue involving labeling a dog D/A.
These dogs are know for having a difficult growing up period and challenging their owners.

Bob: Thank you for your focused advice to Solange that has dealt directly and productively with the specific issues she has brought to the board. I really appreciate the input you have given her and your time in doing so.

I have said this before but I guess I need to say it again. THERE IS NO TRAINER AVAILABLE TO MY KNOWLEDGE THAT SOLANGE CAN CONSULT WITH ABOUT THIS DOG IN HER IMMEDIATE AREA.
SHE HAS HAD TRAINERS AND BEHAVIORISTS OUT TO HER HOUSE TO WORK WITH THE DOG. THE ONES AVAILABLE ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. If someone knows a good behaviorist that has experience with LSGDs and high drive working dogs in solange's area please let us know via PM.
SOOOOOOO in the mean time I don't think anyone here would advise dumping the dog off at the breeder because she is having a bit of difficulty. Especially since I am under the impression that the breeder is not capable of dealing with this pup or her temperment.
Is this optimal? no? Is it better than nothing or returning the dog to a breeder who in all likelihood will mismanage it????

Many of the negative comments on this thread are classic over reactions to the normal difficulties of figuring out what works with a specific dog and owner team.
It takes a while to figure out what things and techniques will work best.
If the dog is progressing well and she is, I move slowly allowing time for things to work...at least a week for each new approach. anything else is too fast and reactive to be productive.

In ONE MONTH and 5 days we have taken a dog that was unmanageable, growling at her owner regularly, not listening, shut down, and developing serious behavior problems to a dog that is responsive, trusting, relaxed, engaged, motivated, and NOT showing sings of serious Aggression/dominance.

English is not Solange's first language and while she is fluent, it is difficult for her to translate her ideas into english and then have her intent come through perfectly.

I disagree that she is in over her head at this time. Having observed this dog regularly I think that she is super drivey, and a Brat that likes to push the boundaries.
Solange has chosen to stay with this dog and her temperament and is happy with it. She has reasonable expectations for her relationship with THIS dog. Believe me I have been clear about that with her. I have also told her that since the dog is so drivey that she could end up bitten....as many of us have...not from an aggressive dog but because of an engaged drivey dog. (Jami Craigs story about tucking the frisee up under her arm and Gam going for it and getting Jami's armpit.....the corgi tagged my thumb the other day because her targeting sucks right now for tug......)

As far as the incident the other day with the rocks and hole in the garden......the dog rushed over to solange's feet.....classic prey response....and then grabbed her arm...I have seen this dog do this so many times....her body language is "please play with me" This dog's answer to every thing is to grab any part of Solange she can and try to start a play session by chewing on her. Play bows and everything. She had a challenging look in her eyes because she didn't want her hole filled in.
The dog gets out of control and in high prey drive easily, so I have had Solange put her in the crate when she is like that to diffuse the situation and let the puppy calm down.
When solange shut the door the pup was mad and vocalized it.
Solange did the right thing and left her in the crate...the worst thing she could have done was take the dog out of the crate and correct her physically.
The dog hadn't done anything to warrant a physical correction prior to being put in the crate.
I disagree that the dog "won" or "got away" with anything.

IT. HAS. ONLY. BEEN. A. MONTH.

That's between you and Solange.

It would be irresponsible if no one said to "get in-person expert help" after a teeth-on-the-handler post.

JMO!

Yup you are right Connie. . And that has been said over and over but there doesn't seem to be expert help available locally.

"As far as the incident the other day with the rocks and hole in the garden......the dog rushed over to solange's feet.....classic prey response....and then grabbed her arm...I have seen this dog do this so many times....her body language is "please play with me" This dog's answer to every thing is to grab any part of Solange she can and try to start a play session by chewing on her. Play bows and everything".

This explains a lot to me. A pushy pup is never in itself a prelude to DA. AKA Connie I also think it's a very over used and undeserved term. The mouthing now does sound like a spoiled puppy thing that hopefully will be gotten under control.