Ted,
Nope it's not black and white at all, and it gets even harder to get valid information due to so many dog owners just not being able to look honestly at their dog's ability to protect them.
Couple that with the scads of false advertising by so many so-called "ppd trainers" and you find that the misinformation about ppd's is everywhere.


Jenni,
I see what you're saying!
Yes, the fact that the children are members of the family/pack will make a difference with a ppd after it's bonded to the family. But those children will have friends over and play, etc., and that's often where the trouble comes in. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
A dog that tolerates ( even loves children ) can do real world protection, but it will by it's nature be less "sharp" ( and usually less suspicious ) which may cost you a few seconds in a real life encounter. You have to weigh the risk vs. benefits here carefully, to include your own level of awareness ( to prevent accidents ) and your handler ability.
Sheesh....complicated, isn't it? Yet there are ppd vendors that will sell you a dog sight unseen and ship along a video on how to handle the dog. And crap like that is why I complain so much about the state of ppd's so much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

If you'll look through my old posts, you'll see that I've recommended a dog with an "alert bark" as adequate for 80% to 90% of situations and clients. But when you need the real deal, there's no substitute. But owning a hard-core ppd is a *huge* responsibility ( in continued training time, liability, awareness, etc, etc, etc...) . Most people can not or will not be able to make the commitment that owning a true ppd requires. The good part of that is...most people don't *need* that level of ppd.
That's just how it is, and it's actually pretty obvious once you look at all the facts - but it's sometimes hard to get owner's to see it that way.

Feel free to PM me if you have further question, I get over 20 PM's a day here anyhow...hehe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree that the "watch the DVD" method of accepting a PPD is crazy. I plan to work weekly with Cheryl Carlson.

Ted

I do believe that you loose sharpness the more sociable your dog is, I know that in most cases a somewhat "social" PPD will, for example, let a stranger drive away the family car if the car is left unattended with the dog in it, if the stranger approaches the dog in the right way (a friendly, casual way... my GSD for example... shh don't try to steal my truck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />... whereas if you had a very sharp dog, this won't happen, but unless you take some precautions, you run the risk of kids sticking their fingers in the windows to pet the doggy n other such stupid irritating things. The problem with some of the precautions such as a crate, go hand in hand with some of the problems I've outlined below...

However, when I think PPD, I don't think property guard dog or anything like that, I think of a dog that is trained to defend the family, which to me, means the dog is stable in every situation, you can take the dog to the park with the kids and know that if someone tries to kidnap your kid or assault you, you can send your dog on the guy, however you still need to be incredibly vigilant. When we were out training one night, one of the guys I train with made the mistake of hitting the other guy with a padded stick to demonstrate how soft it was... he twirled around and yelled "ITS OK!!!" at his dog who was in the process of jumping out the car window to defend his handler -- I think this is was what made us go buy crates to use during training... although, that same dog broke the crate door last week, so that's another lesson, don't rely on a crate, still keep an eye on your dog unless you have a very nice crate! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I personally don't see the point of owning a PPD that can't get to you when you need the dog - i.e. kennel dogs... "hold on mr crackhead, my dog can't live in the house without destroying everything and wanting to kill everyone that walks in the door... so let me go into the back yard to unkennel my dog"... bang, you're dead, but I can think of situations where some people might look for something like this. Where was the dog? This would be a good dog to patrol your entire property at night, or a great sport dog that gets unkennel'd n its "go time!" - but to protect you in ANY situation? Potentially useless.

Like Will pointed out, everyone needs/wants a different "level" of dog. One breeder I talked to when I was looking at dutch shepherds bred for police/knpv, their upcoming breeding was a father/daughter breeding (Will, this is a different breeding than the one I PM'd you about) - because of the traits these dogs posessed and the closeness of the breeding in the bloodline, they were anticipating pretty much a "Crazy" hardcore very intense dog, a dog that could never live in your home even if you got the lucky "calm" girl in the litter, a dog that won't tollerate ANY guests in your home, basically one serious ALL WORK dog. Now, I would love to have a dog like this because it just seems plain cool to me to work with a dog like that, but for what I want, my lifestyle and other things I took into consideration when picking my pup - that'd be plain irresponsible. I do like taking on difficult (challenging?) tasks but I don't get stupid about it, I try to be realistic about what I can handle and what is "too much", then error on the side of "too much" cuz, that's just my nature <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, although I think I will actually find that my next pup will be alot less of a pain than everyone is building her up to be, I'm prepared for the worst nightmare of a dog possible. I think the key is to know what you're looking for as an end product and not getting overly stupid about it. Yes it's cool having a dog that looks like it wants to eat everyone for lunch, but will that dog fit in with your lifestyle? We've already established that it's possible to find a PPD for most lifestyles lived by people who are willing to put in the effort required, now it's just down to finding out HOW MUCH you can handle, while also taking into consideration any possible changes in your future. If you don't have kids, will you have kids somewhere in the possible lifespan of the dog? If the answer is yes - will you be able to seperate the dog from the child with absolute 100% certainty? Or are you taking into consideration that this dog you're looking for needs to be less reactive than a dog you would pick if you weren't ever wanting kids? These are all things and considerations I went thru very recently when deciding on my upcoming dutch shepherd so it's all very fresh in my mind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ted, FWIW,
the best dog i've EVER had was a GSD x Rott; she was "hard", as in she took corrections without freaking out over them, but also "sharp", in that she would "alert" and "bark" when there was something out of the ordinary in her world.

she was also "stable", in that she used her brains to decide if something/one was a potential threat to either her "property" or "me"--don't tell my kids this--but, when leaving bars (at college), she NEVER actually bit anyone at 3 am that approached me and/or my truck at that hour. but, BTW, i could call her to me if i felt threatened, and she'd come, and that was all it took to back the jerks down.

she also simply got up and left when my son was a 1 1/2-3 yr old and pinched her lips/ears too hard. he fell off, she went away, and my sister-in-law who thought Tess would kill him, got her bloodpressure under control. But, Tess was an exceptional dog,,,,

 Quote:

"hold on mr crackhead, my dog can't live in the house without destroying everything and wanting to kill everyone that walks in the door... so let me go into the back yard to unkennel my dog"

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike, you are getting a Dutchie right??? I have been training one for a couple months now (he lives in my house)
and I had always heard that they were calmer than Mals.

LIARS LIARS LIARS!!!!!! He is a little spaz-butt! Very cute, but he has that stupid full grip thing going that we ring people hate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He also has a temper with the decoy already. Not everyone can take his toys, and he thinks that he should be on the bed, and is willing to try and drag his crate up on the bed to prove his point. Oh sure they said, nice and calm they said, off button they said. LIARS LIARS LIARS!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Never had a dog try and put his crate on the bed until today.

haha awesome, thanks jeff, im looking forward to it even more now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> too bad you didn't catch that crate thing on video, that sounds really cool, but maybe I'll get to see it for myself one of these days <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> do you know what lines that dutchie is from? i know alot of the crazier ones come from mal/dutchie crosses... n based on the fact that I don't know anything about the father of my pup other than that he's a KNPV PH1 dog, and the reputation the breeder has for out-crossing his pure dutchie's with "striped mals" (dutchie/mal crosses), I'm willing to bet that my pups father is one of those crazy mal/dutchie crosses too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Everyone keeps playing down the intensity of the dutchie, I keep hearing the same thing "mal's with an off switch" "can live around the house like a GSD then goes crazy for the work", I keep hoping it's not true... I suppose I coulda gotten a mal, but everyone has mal's, I want the stripes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can already see the arguments I'm gonna have with people in the street.... "that's a german shepherd mix right?" ... "no, it's a dutch shepherd"... "I've never heard of such a thing, it must be a weird colored german shepherd then right?"... "no, it's a dutch shepherd"... "did you paint her?"... "no she was born that way"... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

He is a beautiful dog for sure. But other than his head, he pretty much looks like a Mal. Start getting ready for the "pit" cross questions. That is what Cruijf reminds me of. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"I personally don't see the point of owning a PPD that can't get to you when you need the dog - i.e. kennel dogs... "hold on mr crackhead, my dog can't live in the house without destroying everything and wanting to kill everyone that walks in the door... so let me go into the back yard to unkennel my dog"... bang, you're dead, but I can think of situations where some people might look for something like this. Where was the dog? This would be a good dog to patrol your entire property at night, or a great sport dog that gets unkennel'd n its "go time!" - but to protect you in ANY situation? Potentially useless"


Sorry Mike, I disagree with you there. You can make reasonable changes to your house and lifestyle and have a PPD that is both available instantly *and* will actually protect you. And that's the crux of the subject here.
I'll use Fetz as an example:
I can have Fetz out when smart dog people are over ( and he's been out in my house with several forum members from here over <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), if I put him in a plotz, he'll stay there. I do take the precaution of telling people not to make any motions towards me that could be viewed as a threat. I can also just put him behind a baby gate in the bedroom - he's got view of me and whoever is over and the ability to watch ( and have no doubt, he's watching )and if needed he can clear that gate in an microsecond.

And far as destroying stuff in the house, that's a training issue with the owner. Even with a dog having drive as high as Fetz's, he hasn't chewed *anything* that I own. He does pace...a lot. He checks the windows constantly....but that enhances my security overall, and that is why I have him, so this is a habit that in the long run is potentially good for a true ppd.


Here's a question that I'd like to pose to the folks that seem to focus only on the incontinence of having a ppd.....have you ever carried a firearm fulltime? It's a pain sometimes - you have to keep it concealed, hence it requires wardrobe decisions at times. Your pistol is heavy and twists your belt, and it pokes you in places that aren't meant for poking. It can stain your clothes.
That's a lot of pain in the butt to have to carry a pistol. But it enhances your security to high degree. Is it worth it? Well, if you live with danger and have a need for one, sure it is. But people with a lesser degree of need could bring up valid points about the incontinence of carrying fulltime.

Just a comparison, but a valid one, in my view.

Quote: He checks the windows constantly....but that enhances my security overall, and that is why I have him, so this is a habit that in the long run is potentially good for a true ppd. UnQuote:


Will, what in your opinion are "valid reasons" for owning a PPD dog? Also why do you feel the need to own and live with a dog like Fetz? I mean why are you different than any other person that wants or feels the need to own a PPD?

Glenn