I think physical activity and feeding play a stronger role than genetics. I have two mastiff crosses. The first I got from an animal shelter and from the age of 5 months old took the dog running, jumping, mountain climbing, rough housing and I fed him grocery store food (I didn't know any better...). To make it even worse, when I got him he was in perfect physical condition. I looked at other pictures of mastiffs on the net, and decided the shelter had been starving him (he had food aggression too), and bulked him up into a little porker. Before age 2 he had hip dysplasia.

Mastiff x #2 I got from a breeder, fed her premium food, kept her lean, never took her running (I still really don't and she's 2), restricted her jumping as much possible, and only took her to rolling hills, vs steeper mountains. No HD, and a litter sister of hers was put down for HD at 8 months of age, so it's in her lines somewhere.

I think, and this is just my opinion, that HD can be present in a dogs lines, but depending on how you exercise and feed the dog as it's growing, will play a huge factor in whether or not it shows itself. I learned that lesson the hard way. Or should I say my dog did <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

barbara,
i'm not sure you should be drawing the conclusions you do from your experience. your first mastiff cross could very well have inherited hip dysplasia, and nothing you did would have made any difference. just because he appeared sound at 5 mos. doesn't mean he wasn't genetically dysplastic.

and your second mastiff cross, having come from a reputable breeder, is more likely to have come from a sound line. even in the best lines, there are always a few dogs that get it.

as a longtime mastiff fancier, a breed with a lot of HD problems, i've found that it's important to exercise right from the beginning. the key is to not over exercise. dogs that don't get enough exercise are more susceptible to knee blowouts. in fact, there's an epidemic of knee ligament tears in mastiffs, and i think it's because of everyone being so spooked about exercising them.

my pup (who turned four yesterday! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) is a purebred mastiff from good lines and weaned on a raw diet. there was never any way to stop this dog from being completely wild. he would launch himself off decks, stairs, cliffs.... i had my heart in my mouth more than once. i remember when he was about six months old and we were out on a walk and he launched himself off a road cut onto the icy road, and just kept running.

we've never kept him from running, jumping, stairs. his breeder felt it was better to let him judge for himself how much activity he could tolerate. he OFAed "good" and is now a real athletic powerhouse. he can haul 50 lbs. on his back for days in the mountains. (we didn't start that activity until he was two years old). exactly what i was hoping for. he's very sound.

my older mastiff, who we adopted at 2.5 years, also came from a very reputable breeder. he'd been protected from hiking, climbing, jumping into and out of cars, stairs. he hadn't been allowed to do hardly anything. he was literally a cripple.

i personally think the fact that ben's breeder has far less hip dysplasia in her lines is on account of her very careful breeding practices, AND her common sense attitude towards both exercise and feeding. you need both.

Hi Alice,

When I said at 5 months old my male was in perfect physical condition it was only to explain that because of pictures of mastiffs on the web, and his food aggression were the reasons I added weight to him. I do believe that the HD was present in his genes but just hadn't showed itself.

I do agree that even in the best lines of dogs can get it. Savannah's litter sister is a good example because I know the owner fed the dog the best food. She trained for mondio ring so I'm not sure if that's too much exercise. I took the conservative approach to exercise with my female because of my male. The two dogs have always been very different though. My male was extremely wild with no off switch when I got him, and my female although very drivey came with an on/off switch. Keeping her from over exercising was very easy. I did carry her up stairs while I could and limited her in other ways. She's no cripple for it, but she's a small 95 pound dog compared to how big your adopted mastiff probably is. I wonder if weight makes a difference in under exercising leading to dogs who can't move well?

After my male came down with HD I limited his exercise and his muscle started atrophying. I had to get him back up on his hind legs to build it back up. At this point I allow him to decide how much activity he can handle only limiting certain things, but when he was younger he wasn't qualified to decide that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Because of everything I've read with regards to feeding and exercise, these are the things that brought the HD out IMO. Whether that's true or not I can't conclusively prove, but because experts say that too much food and exercise is a factor, I can only assume those things played a role. My female has it present in her lines. I followed the latest guidelines, and she doesn't have it.

The question is; how much is too much exercise? My female is over 2 and I haven't taken her running regularly. Can we start this now do you think? Because she won't be finished growing till 3 I haven't taken her running with me regularly.

You say your breeder has less HD in her lines because of her careful breeding practices and common sense attitude toward exercise, that you need both. I agree. I also remember you saying that she only sells her dogs to people that will feed strictly raw. Do you think the raw food is a factor in the success of the lines? I've heard that feeding raw food will cover up many genetic issues. ie. skin problems, behavior, etc. I wonder if everyone fed raw, if dogs would be better off completely, or if it merely masks problems in a line, and if yes to masking, does it really matter if certain traits are suppressed? I'd like to feed my future dogs raw. Right now I feed kibble raw, but it's probably different than the real thing.

Happy Birthday to your mastiff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Is that Ben? Wow, 50 lbs, good for him <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I feel some people may over do physical activity. But there are alot i alos feel that blame physical exercise for bad genetics.

I feel every puppy needs exercise, But there is a line that you shouldnt cross. a puppy is just that a puppy. I have seen alot of people making there puppy do way to much on jumping etc.

I have alos noticed alot of dogs are overweight. a dog is juts like us. you eat to much, you dont exercise then you can expect some bad thigs to come along


http://www.vonhunterkennels.com

That's a terrible story about your last mastifff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad he got to live his last years with you.

My female is lean, but she could probably be leaner. You can see her rib cage outline, but not the last two ribs. I hesitate to give my dogs that starved look because it looks intimidating to people and the last thing I want normal people to think is that they're vicious dogs that are being starved. Plus, to get that look, the dogs really do have to be hungry a lot. Questions that come to mind are would this bring back my males food aggression, create it in the others?

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i think that is wacky. dogs's digestive systems can't handle grains. commercial dog foods cause many of their health problems. to say that because they are healthy on raw means raw is disguising their innate health problems is wacky. if you made yourself sick eating only junk food, and then started eating a healthy diet and became healthy, would you say your healthy diet is masking your genetic problems?

That makes sense, thanks! I heard the first theory and that kind of made sense too, lol. I guess it's how you look at it. I like your angle better.

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yes, it is. you'd be doing your girl a huge favor if you switched her over now. there are many benefits. is there a reason you are waiting?

A few reasons. I already mentioned the bad experience with the chicken leg <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> There's also the issue of my other two dogs turning their nose up to raw. How fair would it be to feed my two males delicious cooked and seasoned food, and chuck my female a bone? Then there's the mess factor. I don't have or use crates. At this point I think it's too late to start my current dogs with them. I fed that chicken leg outside and saw her drop it in the dirt. <we need a gagging emoticon here...> I also don't feel knowledgeable or motivated enough to do the necessary research to ensure a perfectly balanced and safe diet. Add the cost factor. I spend a lot on dog food as it is, but feeding a raw diet that consists of just chicken and innards, not to mention the rest of the variety needed, is WAY more than I'm already paying. I've priced raw all over the place, and it's not cost effective. Bone splintering scares me. And to close, I don't have the stomach for it. Thinking too much about it makes me feel like gagging. Those are my reasons/excuses <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is my plan. I'm moving to the country. At some point I'm going to get another dog. The new dog will be crated and raised by the book according to the instructions here and the video's I can buy. Then I can put the puppy in the crate to eat with no mess, and it won't see what everyone else is eating. By then I can do the reading I need, and where I'll be, I'm sure it will be super cheap to feed raw. If I could feed strictly raw steak, it wouldn't gross me out at all.

Thanks Alice for all this information <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I took Savannah on a two mile sprint once and she could still go. That was without any special conditioning. She's a tiny dog. I see no reason why she can't run far and long. A hound is a good idea though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

barbara, i could address a number of misconceptions you have about feeding raw in your posts, but i can't tell if you want them addressed or not!

certainly don't do it if you don't feel comfortable. and definitely not if you aren't motivated to learn about it. but your fears are unfounded and perhaps reading up on it more would help.

also, there is no need to feed in a crate. i feed my dogs outside in the back yard even when it is 30 below out. they are fine.

a raw-fed dog will have a natural waist. they do not look starved, and they don't go hungry. they look super healthy!

chicken legs are not where i would start. i would start with skinless chicken necks with all the fat removed. dogs are in the dirt all the time, i don't know why that should bother you if their food gets dirty. for heaven's sake, they love to bury it and then eat it later! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

if you order "off-cuts" by the case lot it is cheaper to feed than premium commercial dog food.

i don't know why you are worried about a "perfectly balanced and safe diet." raw feeding provides balance over time, not with every meal. you don't get all your nutrients in one meal, or one day, why do your dogs need to? also, there is no such thing as a perfectly safe diet. dogs have died inhaling kibble. raw bones don't splinter. cooked ones do.

i love watching my dog tear into his food. he gets enormous pleasure out of it, and that gives me pleasure. i was a vegetarian when i started, and i didn't gag.

i know you will do what is right for you. just thought i'd post this so that if others are thinking the same, they might get another idea. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alice, I wouldn't dare deprive anyone of a raw feeding lesson <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> lol Seriously though, if I have misconceptions, please dispel them. I'm always interested in learning. The raw bones splintering isn't a misconception. I've read many cases of it and even seen people on a few boards that have had it happen to their dogs. I don't know how common it is, just that it does happen.

I've read a lot about the diet, just not the ratios, and that's where I'd need to research. That's also what I meant by balanced.

I did look into those off cuts, and no, it's still more expensive than the most expensive dry dog food. Prices are very inflated where I am right now. Butchers want to sell you junk for the price of fillet mignon. Okay, maybe not that bad but you get the idea.

Have their been any formal accreddited studies on raw feeding and it's effects on HD?

barbara,
i had many of the same reservations. i venture to say that if my breeder had not required feeding raw, and if i hadn't already tried for three years and failed to find healthy, long-lived mastiff lines until i found her, i probably would never have done it, either.

having my breeder as my mentor made a huge difference. i probably would not have had the confidence to go raw without her support.

i have not looked into any studies, but my breeder knows them all backwards and forwards. she's been very active in promoting and creating programs to foster mastiff health for the past 25 years.

the reason i got into it was my older mastiff's health was so incredibly atrocious, i agreed to try the raw diet just for two months to see if it helped him, see how hard it was to do, and see how expensive it was going to be.

right away i saw big improvements in tucker's health, and he went from constant vet visits to none, except for his annual checkup. and once i got the hang of how to shop and how to feed, i found that it was easy and cheap. certainly i saved a ton on vet bills!

i will not deny that there was a steep learning curve involved. but it was worth it.

the results i've seen in my and my breeder's dogs is all i really need to know.

i certainly understand your caution and the many discincentives you feel are there. if the cost is the biggest one, i bet i could help you find a way around that. you might be surprised. a two-month tryout is a good way to go if you want to give it a chance. let me know if you want further help and support on this through PMs.

i think this was a hip dysplasia thread! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />