Quote: jennifer ruzsa

But if what you want is a tough-as-nails personal protection dog that you couldn't care LESS about points with, then IMO with a little FARM-BRED cattle dog (stay AWAY from show lines with this breed just the same as with all other working breeds) you can't go wrong. That being said, there isn't nearly the divide yet between show and working ACD's as there is between show and working GSD's, mals, rotties, etc.

And your experience in the ACD breed to make this statement is? Sorry but I just don't buy the show line vs. working line argument with ACDs and I have over a decade in the breed, training, showing, an officer of the national breed club for 2 years, and own "farm" bred, "working" line, and "show" line dogs. I know working line ACDs that would not do protection work if their life depended on it and I know just as many "show" line dogs that have what it takes. In fact, my "working" line ACD doesn't have ANY prey/toy drive and is incredibly soft. Awesome herding/obedience dog but not a protection sports dog. I have a dog from traditional conformation lines who has drives to die for and a pretty decent grip. Generalizations are rarely correct..... Just because an ACD has "attitude" (which pretty much all of them do), it does not mean when the rubber hits the road they are going to stay in the fight.

The ACD fanciers have fought long and hard to ensure that a chasm does not occur between working and show "lines" and we have done a pretty darn good job. The dog that won the nationals this year went out the next day and placed in the cattle trials and the day before he won breed he placed in obedience. Nothing frustrates me more than people generalizing that dogs from show/working/farm are better than others. Evaluate each dog individually, not where or how the dog was bred. Believe me, one can "go wrong" if all they base their choice of ACD on is where the dog was bred.

Personally, I would never advise anyone looking for a protection dog to get an ACD. Yeah, they can do it but the average ACD these days is not suitable for the job. If you love the breed and want a protection dog, than by all means find an ACD suitable for it but the average person who is just looking for a protection dog is likely to be frustrated in the search if they solely focus on ACDs. Think about it - ACDs have been bred for generations to come in low and grip and release the heels of cattle in an effort to move the recalitrant stock. In protection, we are asking a dog to take a full grip and hold on, no matter if someone is striking you with a stick, bat, knife - you name it. It takes an exceptional ACD to ignore generations of instinct to do that.

In fact, I am in the process of considering importing a bitch from Germany to breed to my male - a bitch that seems to have what it takes to do the sport from a breeder who has titled ACDs as well in Schutzhund. Guess what? The only non "show" lined dogs in the pedigree is FOUR generations back on only one side of the pedigree

Ok, done with my breed related rant

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http://www.psychtkennel.com

 Quote: ingrid rosenquist

 Quote: jennifer ruzsa

But if what you want is a tough-as-nails personal protection dog that you couldn't care LESS about points with, then IMO with a little FARM-BRED cattle dog (stay AWAY from show lines with this breed just the same as with all other working breeds) you can't go wrong. That being said, there isn't nearly the divide yet between show and working ACD's as there is between show and working GSD's, mals, rotties, etc.

And your experience in the ACD breed to make this statement is? Sorry but I just don't buy the show line vs. working line argument with ACDs and I have over a decade in the breed, training, showing, an officer of the national breed club for 2 years, and own "farm" bred, "working" line, and "show" line dogs. I know working line ACDs that would not do protection work if their life depended on it and I know just as many "show" line dogs that have what it takes. In fact, my "working" line ACD doesn't have ANY prey/toy drive and is incredibly soft. Awesome herding/obedience dog but not a protection sports dog. I have a dog from traditional conformation lines who has drives to die for and a pretty decent grip. Generalizations are rarely correct..... Just because an ACD has "attitude" (which pretty much all of them do), it does not mean when the rubber hits the road they are going to stay in the fight.

The ACD fanciers have fought long and hard to ensure that a chasm does not occur between working and show "lines" and we have done a pretty darn good job. The dog that won the nationals this year went out the next day and placed in the cattle trials and the day before he won breed he placed in obedience. Nothing frustrates me more than people generalizing that dogs from show/working/farm are better than others. Evaluate each dog individually, not where or how the dog was bred. Believe me, one can "go wrong" if all they base their choice of ACD on is where the dog was bred.

Personally, I would never advise anyone looking for a protection dog to get an ACD. Yeah, they can do it but the average ACD these days is not suitable for the job. If you love the breed and want a protection dog, than by all means find an ACD suitable for it but the average person who is just looking for a protection dog is likely to be frustrated in the search if they solely focus on ACDs. Think about it - ACDs have been bred for generations to come in low and grip and release the heels of cattle in an effort to move the recalitrant stock. In protection, we are asking a dog to take a full grip and hold on, no matter if someone is striking you with a stick, bat, knife - you name it. It takes an exceptional ACD to ignore generations of instinct to do that.

In fact, I am in the process of considering importing a bitch from Germany to breed to my male - a bitch that seems to have what it takes to do the sport from a breeder who has titled ACDs as well in Schutzhund. Guess what? The only non "show" lined dogs in the pedigree is FOUR generations back on only one side of the pedigree

Ok, done with my breed related rant

Let's not forget that the OP isn't looking for a dog to actually TRAIN in protection and trial. I took that into consideration in my answer.

As for the chasm in the breed, I agree it isn't there to the extent that it is in other breeds and for this I'm grateful. But the fact is, when you breed for something to the exclusion of most other things, you lose those "other things". Put it this way, if I took my dog and put him on cattle and he totally rocked, and then I ALSO said "well he'd get a Ch. too if I wanted to show him, I don't even need to test him in the ring" then you'd pissed and rightfully so.

Yet somehow the conformation folks have NO PROBLEM breeding only for confirmation and then pulling the old "function follows form" crap. They'll forcefully (almost threateningly) say that their dogs "don't need to be tested on cattle... They have instinct and it doesn't need to be proved."

It's the same with just about ALL working breeds and retrieving breeds. If you show your dogs and they also happen to work, fantastic. Maybe there isn't the breed chasm in YOUR dogs or the dogs of the breeders you know and respect. But if you don't work your dogs, you have no business saying they can work (and vice versa). "You" being general of course since I know about as much about your history with the breed as you know about mine, right?

My point is, working folk in general would be CRUCIFIED for even suggesting that their dogs have good conformation without putting a Ch. on the dog... Yet conformation folks have NO PROBLEM suggesting that the working ability of their stock can go without saying. That's really irritating.

I have the utmost respect for breeders that breed for conformation and workability, as long as if SOMETHING has to suffer, it's going to be a little spot here or some tan undercoat there, and not the dog's ability to work. JMO.

Besides, a good farm-bred ACD is 1/3 the price of a dog from show lines. It really is all about what YOU as the buyer/owner want. I do agree though that there are still dogs in both camps that can do either (i.e. there are conformation dogs that can work, and working dogs that, if shown, would get their Ch.) and I hope it stays that way. I doubt it will, but I hope it does and commend those working towards that goal.

Edited to Add:

In terms of protection, a dog that bites low and doesn't hang on but keeps coming back is just fine if you're not competing and only looking for protection. I personally think the ACD's in general are a smarter, more intuitive breed than sport-bred GSD's anyway, since there are NO GSD's still bred for herding. See, herding requires so much from the dog; skill, drive, and obedience. Arguably, so does SchH... But (and here's where the difference is) in FARM WORK the dog is not only allowed but EXPECTED to think and act on their own. In SchH that costs you points. I much prefer a thinking dog, just personally.

 Quote:

As for the chasm in the breed, I agree it isn't there to the extent that it is in other breeds and for this I'm grateful. But the fact is, when you breed for something to the exclusion of most other things, you lose those "other things". Put it this way, if I took my dog and put him on cattle and he totally rocked, and then I ALSO said "well he'd get a Ch. too if I wanted to show him, I don't even need to test him in the ring" then you'd pissed and rightfully so.

What are you basing this on? Personally I think that conformation shows are about as useful in evaluating breeding stock as I think Schutzhund picks out personal protection dogs. I take both with a grain of salt. The comment above is based on the mentality that people who show in conformation are only about looks and nothing else. Maybe other breeds have gone that way but - by and large - my breed has not.

Herding titles on ACD show dogs is not unusual occurence. The #1 ACD in the USA for the last two years who is also currently ranked in the top ten for herding dogs and has several all breed Best in Shows under his belt is herding trial titled.

 Quote:

Yet somehow the conformation folks have NO PROBLEM breeding only for confirmation and then pulling the old "function follows form" crap. They'll forcefully (almost threateningly) say that their dogs "don't need to be tested on cattle... They have instinct and it doesn't need to be proved."

How many ACD breeders have told you this? Again, this is the same argument I always hear from people down on conformation folks. Are there ACD breeders out there who might say this? Yeah, like every breed, it has its bad apples but they are in the minority - by a long shot. You don't see me casting all working breeders with the same brush? I could easily argue that working breeders don't give a damn about good shoulder angulation etc, all they care about is the dog having enough drive to do the work. If it has enough drive to overcome the pain of working with bad shoulders and/or hips that have deteriorated, even better. Are there some working breeders like that? Yep. Like I said, there is some in every bunch. But I also said in my previous email, generalizations are rarely completely accurate....

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It's the same with just about ALL working breeds and retrieving breeds. If you show your dogs and they also happen to work, fantastic. Maybe there isn't the breed chasm in YOUR dogs or the dogs of the breeders you know and respect. But if you don't work your dogs, you have no business saying they can work (and vice versa). "You" being general of course since I know about as much about your history with the breed as you know about mine, right?

I told you my history. I asked you about yours I am interested in which breeders you are referring to. Feel free to PM me. I agree, if one does not actively work their dogs, they should not make those statements, however, I don't see how this transfers to the "stay away from show lines" argument that I was responding to. Sure there are people who are kennel blind and think their dog is the best thing since sliced bread - without any proof. This is not an illness of only conformation people, I see plenty of people who think their working dogs are all that and a bag of chips. My point is whether you go to a breeder who breeds farm dogs, working dogs, or show dogs, Caveat Emptor. There is no line of dog that guarantees that you will get a working dog and/or a correctly conformed dog.

 Quote:

My point is, working folk in general would be CRUCIFIED for even suggesting that their dogs have good conformation without putting a Ch. on the dog... Yet conformation folks have NO PROBLEM suggesting that the working ability of their stock can go without saying. That's really irritating.

This is the same tired argument that is always made. I call it chapter 2 in the book AKC: The Evil Empire. What I am objecting to is the "Us aganist Them" mentality. Are there people who might say these things? Sure, they are stupid and in my breed, thankfully, they are in the minority.

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I have the utmost respect for breeders that breed for conformation and workability, as long as if SOMETHING has to suffer, it's going to be a little spot here or some tan undercoat there, and not the dog's ability to work. JMO.

I agree, cosmetic faults should be the first to sacrifice. Indeed, I chose a red with a significant amount of blue in his coat over a clearer red as I wanted the temperament and the nice front/rear angulation that the incorrect colored dog had. But I would also argue that a dog with a ton of drive is useless if its conformation is so bad that it will be broken down by the age of four. Nothing sadder than seeing a high drive working dog so lame that it can't do what its brain and heart wants to do. I have seen that in both ACDs and Malinois. It is even more heartbreaking to me than a pretty dog with no brain. At least that dog is ignorant of its inadequacies.

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Besides, a good farm-bred ACD is 1/3 the price of a dog from show lines. It really is all about what YOU as the buyer/owner want. I do agree though that there are still dogs in both camps that can do either (i.e. there are conformation dogs that can work, and working dogs that, if shown, would get their Ch.) and I hope it stays that way. I doubt it will, but I hope it does and commend those working towards that goal.

LOL, sometimes I know farmers who have untested stock that they breed that is being sold at more than I paid for my conformation line bitch. My argument is that there are far more dogs with herding instinct showing in conformation than is being stated. Here is a quote from an article about a herding trial that took place this year in regards to ACDs:

As you flip through the catalog, you can't help to notice the dedication of the owners of this sturdy, sometimes challenging breed. Well over half the entered Australian Cattle Dogs were breed champions as well as carrying many other titles in agility and obedience titles. This is a virtue worth noting.

The entire article can be found here:

http://www.akc.org/events/herding/st_louis_herding_club/2006/

I am not meaning to pick on you Jennifer, I just see these arguments all the time and this is decidely not my experience. I am not sitting here with rose-tinted glasses, it is a constant battle to ensure our breed does not go the way of many others like the BC and the GSD in the AKC. However, it is a battle that I feel we are winning or, at the very least, holding steady on

I remember seeing an episode of Cops in which a small Malinois was sent after a suspect. When the cops and camera caught up with them, the suspect was just calmly standing with the dog calmly hanging off his arm, all four paws off the ground. The suspect didn't even act like he noticed there was a dog attached to him.

Incidentally, Czech dogs aren't necessarily small. My own part-Czech GSD towers (but within standard) over the pure German dogs at my club. I think there's plenty of variation in both Czech and German, and Slovak, and any other working lines. I'm guessing show lines may tend to more uniform in size, but that's just a guess.

LOL, yeah I guess hanging on like a little gnat could be little deterrant to some bad guys :-p Fortunately (for the schutzhund field) and unfortunately (for the breed ring), my young male is a MOOSE. He is 22 inches and over 65 pounds at 17 months. He is pointed in the show ring and will finish. Not that that means anything, these days you can finish a snaggle toothed three legged dog with enough time and money But he sure can knock someone flat when he comes in flying :-)

Call me an idiot, call me a novice, call me an inexperienced, know nothing jack!@#. Here's my opinion of the matter. Instead of everyone fighting about which is better...show dogs or working lines, why doesn't everyone start intentionally breeding the dogs together so that the breed will go back to the original value that it was intended by Max what's his name. There is nothing wrong with a dog that looks good and adheres to the conformation standards and that has the ability to work. Why all the fuss? This should be a united front not a divided one. All those that say they are on one side of the coin or the other aren't necessarily doing the breed any favors. Why can't we all just get along!!!!! Okay, I'm done. Seems to me those that are attempting to breed show lines that can work are the ones that should be applauded. The original german shepherd that I rememnber as a kid wasn't a sable or a black, it was a black and red and they were great dogs. The breeders are the one's responsible for creating the chasm. They should be ashamed of tbemselves. But hey that's just my "OUTSIDERS, KNOW NOTHING, opinion.

Robbin, i have a west german showline dog that i love, we have a blast with him, awesome dog to play ball with and all that stuff. I also have a nice czech lines dog, i wouldn't call the difference a "chasm", it's more like nite and day. Go and seek out a way to view both types of dogs working and see for yourself the difference. My bet is you'll see the difference right away,
AL

Robbin - have you seen the pictures of what the really early GSD's looked like?
You might want to take a gander at what the earliest GSD's looked like in the 1900 - 1920 time period. They looked *nothing* like the Showlines dogs of today.

And this forum is primarily stocked with Working dog folks - if you're deeply interested in the Show Lines dogs, you'll find people with more experience with those animals on other forums. It just not a topic of interest with most of the forum here.

And some of our Show Lines members here are probably looked down on by the majority of other Show Lines people since they feel that working ability is important in their dogs ( Beth for example - if more Show Lines people had her attitude and good ethics, there would not be such a great divide between the two camps of the GSD ) .

And sorry, most of us here subscribe to the fact that breeding Show Lines to Working lines just produces a weaker dog.

You seem to have the picture of an American Showlines type dog as your ideal. You'd likely be happiest with one of those by your description of your needs ( with the exception of protective instincts ).

Early GSD's looked like malinois. And they were beautiful dogs.

Ingrid, I guess my opinion is based on the result of the myriad of OTHER breeds that are registered with the AKC. They've all gone downhill. The retrievers became less valuable as hunting partners, the herding dogs became useless for farm work... Let's not even get STARTED with breeds like bulldogs who can't have live births, shepherds who can barely walk, and mastiffs that bloat if you look at them wrong because of their sheer bulk (which wasn't the case with the breed foundation).

Has it happened to the ACD? Not yet, at least not to the degree above. Will it? Unfortunately, very likely. I HOPE that there remain people dedicated to both working and conformation but because conformation is easier than working BY FAR in terms of training, evaluating, and competing, the lazy breeders tend to do conformation to the exclusion of working, then try to pawn off their stock as "for show/work/pet". Do all? No. Do many? Unfortunately so.

The reality is that it isn't the AKC that ruins these breeds, but it's the AKC's in-your-face be all and end all push push push that causes people to think that the ONLY dogs worth considering are those with "Champion parents". And because conformation has to be the easiest event there is, there is no shortage of breeders with Champion lines. The problem is, when these conformation dogs become what the public views as superior, and anything that isn't a Champion is mediocre at best, that's where the problem comes in.

It would not be so bad if the SAME view was taken with working. But in general it isn't. It's a sad day when an old farm-bred ACD who can move cattle practically without direction is overlooked for breeding because his markings aren't symmetrical. It isn't there yet with the ACD, but it's getting nearer that with the BC (since AKC recognition) and it's already there with... Well... Can you honestly think of any other true herding breed that is still worth a damn in the pen? GSD's are out, Aussies are more or less out, Belgians are out... What still herds? BC's, ACD's, and maybe Kelpies...

It's no coincidence that the only herding dogs still worth their salt are those that are just VERY newly accepted by the AKC, or not accepted yet at all. In fact, in order to preserve the breed the Border Collie clubs (and actually I believe the Kelpie clubs too) won't even ACCEPT a dog for registration if he's also registered with the AKC. And no matter how hard the BC folk are fighting, there IS a chasm with the BC breed.

Keep in mind too that herding trials are tame by comparison to farm work. So when the TRUE ACD/kelpie/BC people talk about working, they mean farms. They don't mean only trials. Trials test working stock, but they don't DEFINE working stock. Being in the pen or on the field, 10 to 12 hours per day, 365 days per year... That's what defines a WORKING dog.