Tess,

I've probably over-posted on this topic, but dog attack reports, especially attacks on kids, are everywhere you look these days. It's something I am VERY opinionated on even though, in general, I try to see both sides of the story. Dog attacks are almost ALWAYS owner-related (through a lack of training, incorrect training, poor containment, lack of knowledge, abuse, bad breeding or all of these things combined) but the dogs catch the heat...either through euthanization or breed bans or just an undeserved bad rap. It makes me crazy when a dog attacks TWICE. I don't want that to happen with your friend's dog.

Here's a recent thread for you to look at. It involves dogs that attacked a child one day, and two days later attacked a few kids and a teacher in a school yard:

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=144043&Searchpage=2&Main=15168&Words=Amber+Morgan&topic=0&Search=true#Post144043

You'll see in the article that while the dogs were house-quarantined after the first attack, the owner's ROOMMATE let the dogs out while the owner was at work, and they attacked kids in the school yard. But is it the roommate's responsibility? No. It's the OWNER'S. The roommate may be a moron, but it is the owner's responsibility to make sure that dogs are not left in the care of a moron.

This is the kind of thing that can happen if the owners of dogs do not demonstrate the proper responsibility. And it also shows how unforgiving people are when it happens TWICE.

Now, I'm not saying I think Cookie is going to go on a wild rampage and attack every child that she comes in contact with. To be honest, she sounds like a nice dog that had an unfortunate, but canine, reaction. To be honest, if I were a dog, babies would scare the crap out of me, too. It's not like the dog walked by the baby and just decided to take a chomp out of the kid.

So I think I'm going to soften my stance a little. It's *possible* that this dog could live out the rest of her days with your friend's family, under the right circumstances and with the proper precautions. She's lived with the family for 4 years, right? With no other problems...no growling, anything at all? And she's a rescue dog, right? For all you know it's possible that she lived her first 2 years with a family that allowed a baby to chew on her tail as a teething toy. We'll never know and it doesn't really matter. Strange kids are not an option. Kids outside of the family are not an option. No second chances, remember?

However, if the owner of the dog 100% trusts that dog around her own children, then pehaps she can stay in the family. She'd need to be crated when anyone outside of her "safety zone" (anyone else, in other words) comes over. If needs to be taken around other people for any reason, she needs to wear a quality muzzle. No exceptions to this, because again, NO SECOND CHANCES.

This is of course, only an option that is suggested from someone you don't know, online, about a dog I have never met concerning a situation I didn't see.

Ultimately, your friend will have to dig deep and see if she can trust, TOTALLY trust, her dog around her kids. Because there are going to be plenty of unexpected situations left in the dog's life.

For example, my 8 year old son, VERY calm and well-schooled in proper dog-human interaction, accidentally tripped and landed on my GSD's tail with his full weight. Now in my situation, my dog yelped and then scrambled up to lick him to death. What do you think would have happened if it had been Cookie who got stomped? No matter how careful you are, there will always be situations that will boil down to the dog's individual temperament.

If she CAN'T trust the dog 100% with her kids, then she should rehome the dog to people who don't have kids and are very responsible and alert and aware of the situation. It will be hard for everyone--your friend, her kids, and the dog. But the right thing isn't always (or even usually) the easy thing.

But, please, don't let her consider euthanizing the dog. He's not a bad dog, from what you've described, but maybe just a dog that's an improper fit for her family.

Please keep us posted. I'm sure we'd all like to hear the results of the temperament testing and what your friend decided to do.

If she does decide to keep the dog, try to talk her into joining this board. People can be very blunt, but they are honest and IMO, this board has a bigger wealth of information than you will find almost anywhere.

You sound like you're intelligent and open-minded and best of all---you're seeking help. Your friends sounds like she wants to do the right thing, and she's got good support in you. All good signs.

Your friend has a really hard decision to make, and I don't envy her position. I wish you all the best.

Tess, I'm fully prepared to take a whole bunch of heat for this, BUT...did I misread this, or was the dog sleeping when a strange toddler crawled up to it? I'd see this as an unfortunate, yet predictable incident. The dog was startled, and reacted in a way that may not have been ideal (understatement), but is certainly not, IMO, a death sentence for the dog.

I cannot say that my own dogs would not do the identical thing. Where was the parent of this toddler???? WHY was a toddler unattended long enough to crawl up to a SLEEPING dog??? Asinine,IMO. If it were my dog, I'd pay for the kid's stitches as PR, but chalk it up to stupidity...on both sides. Watch the dog more closely in the future, and consider it a lesson learned. I hope the child is ok, and that it's parents pay better attention to these situations in the future.

I feel like dogs are being bashed more and more for these attacks, but from my own experience w/my dogs and kids, I see the BIGGEST change being the lack of supervision kids today receive. Based on my own neighborhood/dogs situation, (naked toddler constantly hitting my dogs with swords through the fence/kennel, etc.)I feel like cutting this dog some slack; this dog has been ok for the last 4 years, and it's unfair to discount that fact. We need to seriously re-evaluate the standards we hold our dogs to for fairness and reality!

Not to totally disagree with the points made by other posters, just trying to play devil's advocate here...

Edited to say: I agree w/Kristel, and I think that people misread this post based on emotion. This was NOT the owner's child, nor Tess' child. This was a STRANGE child and the dog was SLEEPING. Entirely different than if it was one of their kids, and IMO, different than if the dog had been aware of the child's presence-even the adults were unaware of the child's presence prior to this incident. Terrible accident.

Edited by Jenni Williams (06/21/2007 11:16 AM)
Edit reason: reread posts

Jenni,

I agree with you. I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that the dog acted without malice of intent, but out of a reaction to the situation.

But unfortunately, once a dog bites a child, assumptions are no longer an option. It may be that the dog will never have another incident. Or it may be that the dog could bite again. Which is the safest assumption to make? That's the gamble. Even if it seems unlikely, the owner has to assume that the dog will bite again and act accordingly because if she doesn't, and the dog does bite again...well..."fool me once..." and so on.

Some dogs would have ignored the baby in this situation. Some dogs would have gotten up and moved away. Some dogs would have growled as a warning and some dogs would bite instantly. None of these dogs are bad dogs...they're just dogs with different temperaments.

This dog has demonstrated its temperament here. And not all people or situations fit all temperaments. No judgement involved, that's just the way it is.

The other thing, speaking of assumptions, the OP said that the owner didn't even see the baby until after it all happened. I assume her focus was on the game and not the dog she ASSUMED was sleeping. It could be that the dog saw the baby crawling over to him and thought it was a threat. It could be that the baby was messing with the dog for a few minutes before anyone noticed. It could be that the dog was growling before it bit, but the owner didn't hear because of the noise of the game. It could be that the dog saw the baby coming, made no warning, and just bit the baby because the baby crawled into it's territory. It could be that the dog had never seen a baby before and the dog thought he was protecting the owner from a foreign threat.

I'm sure I'm overstating my point here . But do you see what I'm saying? When it comes to a dog that has bitten a child and you're not positive what actually happened, it's always safest to assume the worst case scenario...just in case. Because what if you're wrong and the dog does it again?

When you see an empty stretch of road...do you assume that there are no cops and drive 100mph? Or do you assume that there IS a cop and drive the speed limit? You may be okay either way, but which assumption will GUARANTEE that you don't get in trouble?

Better safe than sorry, because as right as you may be about the parent of the child being an idiot...there will always be idiot parents out there, and nutty children, and knowing this, we need to take precautions-- because the fallout will land on us and our dogs, and an innocent child will be bitten, and more bad PR will come down on our dogs.

Unlikely or not, understandable or not, if that dog bites another child, it WILL be euthanized...regardless of what the owner wants. That's MY assumption, anyway!

 Quote: amber morgan

Some dogs would have ignored the baby in this situation. Some dogs would have gotten up and moved away. Some dogs would have growled as a warning and some dogs would bite instantly. None of these dogs are bad dogs...they're just dogs with different temperaments.

I'm certainly not as qualified in behavior and training as some of the other poster's here - I posted my response earlier out of my allbeit limited experience but sincere concern for this dog, as the euthanization question was raised... BUT, maybe someone can answer this question:

Yes, all dogs have different temperments, but when raising a pup one of the most important things you work on (with a "pet" anyway) is bite inhibition - meaning that the pup learns that human skin is sensitive (under ALL situations) and it should be exceedingly conscious of that fact anytime it's mouth gets anywhere near a person. (I have NO idea how this translates to training dogs for protection/bite work, so I'm very curious about the subject now).

Good bite inhibition, as I understood it, can translate to a dog who, when it is accidentally fallen upon by a toddler, does NOT whirl around and bite but simply startles (mayeb it's nose even turns and ends up in the kids face, but it doesn't bite). Are there dogs that cannot learn this because of their particular temperment? Is there any way to TEACH an adult dog better bite inhibition, or has the groundwork for biting already been deeply instilled at this point? Sorry if this is a dopey question, but I just remembered working with my pup at this and I just had to ask...

~Natalya

Natalya,

I personally believe that there are steps you can take to increase the odds that a dog will be safe around kids or in unexpected circumstances.

But it will NEVER be fool-proof. Not ever. A dog is still a dog, and you can't fundamentally change a dog's temperament, even if you can modify it a little.

Training has a huge impact on a dog and can make a drastic difference in a dog. But even the best training can fall apart in a highly stressful situation. I belive this is why Will R says that there are very very few dogs that are suited to real PP work, even if they excel at Schutzhund.

No matter how well I think I know my dogs and how well I think I can predict their behavior...I am reminded of best friends and family...who I thought I knew backwards and forwards...who have shocked the heck out of me with uncharacteristic behaviors. If I can't predict what a close member of my own species will do under all circumstances, how can I be 100% sure about a dog?

Just my tiny 2 cents.

Natalya, Amber is pretty quick on the keyboard. Bite inhibition doesnt mean will not bite no matter what. Now that you know what can get this reaction from this dog you know what to avoid. Our English Setter never startles when she's awakened and I would bet it would take absolute abuse to make her bite but if you as a stranger tried play roughhouse with Andy my Rott, you may get bitten. If you want to check his teeth, you can open his mouth and count everyone of them even though he doesnt know you. I think that no matter how much training, Every different dog can be provoked in some way to bite.

 Quote: steve strom

Bite inhibition doesnt mean will not bite no matter what.

Thanks Amber and Steve. I figured this much, though I didn't know if there was a way to WORK on it at this point, to *lessen* the chances of another bad bite, under whatever circumstance...

~Natalya

It's unfortunate that Cookie will likely be labeled a "bad dog," because of bad parents. The big difference here is that Cookie is a D-O-G; she's an animal, who reacted instinctively according to her animal instincts. The parents here were just lazy and negligent. We who have aggressive dogs understand that there is ZERO room for error; why then, don't parents of babies and toddlers realize the same thing? (I am NOT calling Cookie an aggressive Excuse my rant, but when will people today start taking responsibilty for themselves, their children, and their dogs???

ANYTHING that would happen to my 2 yr old (in my presence) would be my fault. I would be so embarrassed that I'd allowed (through intent or laziness or neglect) my toddler to crawl up to a sleeping dog that I'd probably never show my face in that crowd again.

Well put Jenni. Human negligence does seem to plague dog ownership these days - not sure when our pets made the cultural shift from instinctive ANIMALS to walking teddy bears, but there are a lot of issues that need addressing here. I sincerely hope the owner of THIS dog can step up and do what she needs to do to ensure this doesn't happen again - and that the owner of that two year old child has learned a lesson as well...

~Natalya