Quote: Shannon Reed

I see growling a bit different. A growl is a warning. If you tell the dog he cannot growl then the next option he has is action--biting/attacking.

Shannon

Absolutely agree with this.

 Quote: shannon reed

I see growling a bit different. A growl is a warning. If you tell the dog he cannot growl then the next option he has is action--biting/attacking.

Shannon

I agree with this, however, a stern "KNOCK IT OFF" works at my house. And, if they really want to push it (which they don't) I will go over and "claim" the item. I do not pick it up and walk away, but rather walk over and stand over it. After the dog gives in and figures out that crap like growling will not be tolerated, I walk away and let them have it again.

Teaching a good solid "LEAVE IT" is essential in my opinion. And for a real aggressive dog, we use two people a long line and a prong collar. This way, I can walk over and claim it and the second person has control of the dog if it truly will bite. I find that most dogs try and bluff their way through it and that the bluff is enough to send the person away which builds the dogs confidence and in turn will end up in a real bite.

Decide what you will tolerate and accept nothing less.

The other thing, I understand that this dog has had a rough past, but you cannot dwell on or use that as an excuse. Dogs live in the moment, but will sense any hesitation you have. SO, Fluffy was abused, the new owner treats Fluffy with kid gloves because they feel sorry about what happened before they go them and then Fluffy gains an edge and develops all kinds of bad behaviors because she knows she can without flack. Essentially, Fluffy thinks she is pack leader.

Not saying this is what is going on, but I really encourage people to move forward, have expectations of the dog and stick to them and let go of the past. There is nothing you can do about the past and in all reality, Fluffy really does not want to be pack leader but sees it as "well someone has to do it".

Geesh, hope that makes sense.

 Quote:

Teaching a good solid "LEAVE IT" is essential in my opinion. And for a real aggressive dog, we use two people a long line and a prong collar. This way, I can walk over and claim it and the second person has control of the dog if it truly will bite. I find that most dogs try and bluff their way through it and that the bluff is enough to send the person away which builds the dogs confidence and in turn will end up in a real bite.

We have one resource guarder among our pack(mostly our doing as many years back we made some mistakes with her). The solution was a really good recall. Working on it first with no resource to guard and then using a long line when we introduced the resource/food to guard( very soft dog so we did not use a prong in this case). Worked great for her.

Shannon

 Quote: cameron feathers

The fact that the dog is growling at you when eating (even just ocasionally) means it is stressed about you abusing your power of leader and it thinks you are about to take the food away!

The dog does not growl at me anymore-- it happened only a couple times and was nipped in the bud. Also, I believe that not all growling is stress. I do not bother the dog while he eats. I feel like you're painting me with a brush of being a tyrant. That is not the case.

I think a good thing would be to agree to disagree here. You feed your dogs in an isolated area, I feed my dogs a different way. When I have multiple dogs in the house, I feed them in crates to prevent any skirmishes between dogs. I do not want to walk on eggshells with my dogs. They are incredibly adaptable animals-- mine eat where I tell them and do not see me as a threat. I will not stay out of the kitchen just because he is eating and I do not need to feed him in the crate because it is not necessary. He eats his food as soon as I give it to him and does not growl, ever. I do not go out of my way to illicit a response from him. When I first took him in he acted like a punk because that is how he was allowed to behave in his first home. He is now very settled in a structured household.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. I do not want to sound like someone who asks for advice and then rejects it just because it is not what they want to hear-- I hate that! My original post simply asked about whether my stance on the subject of growling was totally off-base or not. The topic is beginning to spiral out of control and become a bit personal. That is not what I was meaning or expecting.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

What makes you think these are dominance issues???? Neglected for the first year in his life doesn't necessarily spell out dominance to me.

The dog doesn't have "dominance issues," the dog is dominant and has issues in his head from having a dominant personality and never being taught how to interact with people and in a pack structure. His behavioral problems, I believe, stem from insecurity. He was not neglected by being abused, he was neglected by not being socialized or trained properly.

 Quote: carol boche

 Quote: shannon reed

I see growling a bit different. A growl is a warning. If you tell the dog he cannot growl then the next option he has is action--biting/attacking.

Shannon

I agree with this, however, a stern "KNOCK IT OFF" works at my house. And, if they really want to push it (which they don't) I will go over and "claim" the item. I do not pick it up and walk away, but rather walk over and stand over it. After the dog gives in and figures out that crap like growling will not be tolerated, I walk away and let them have it again.

Teaching a good solid "LEAVE IT" is essential in my opinion. And for a real aggressive dog, we use two people a long line and a prong collar. This way, I can walk over and claim it and the second person has control of the dog if it truly will bite. I find that most dogs try and bluff their way through it and that the bluff is enough to send the person away which builds the dogs confidence and in turn will end up in a real bite.

Decide what you will tolerate and accept nothing less.

The other thing, I understand that this dog has had a rough past, but you cannot dwell on or use that as an excuse. Dogs live in the moment, but will sense any hesitation you have. SO, Fluffy was abused, the new owner treats Fluffy with kid gloves because they feel sorry about what happened before they go them and then Fluffy gains an edge and develops all kinds of bad behaviors because she knows she can without flack. Essentially, Fluffy thinks she is pack leader.

Not saying this is what is going on, but I really encourage people to move forward, have expectations of the dog and stick to them and let go of the past. There is nothing you can do about the past and in all reality, Fluffy really does not want to be pack leader but sees it as "well someone has to do it".

Geesh, hope that makes sense.

Carol, you make complete sense. I totally agree with you.

I do not dwell on his past. I take it into consideration for why he behaves the way he does and and how his bad habits came about. From the moment he stepped through the threshold, he had a reality check. I have a no-nonsense, clear way of training and living with my dogs. There are rules and guidelines and they are always enforced. Dogs must respect the humans in the house, and humans are all informed of how to act around the dogs and respect them, too.

I think it is important to know the "why" behind a behavior. That is why I always take into consideration a dog's past. They may live in the moment, but learned behaviors come from somewhere. A behavior can have many different roots-- he was never socialized. Like you said,

 Quote:

that the bluff is enough to send the person away which builds the dogs confidence and in turn will end up in a real bite.

This dog got away with being a punk and after a year of success at being a punk, it grew and he turned into an a-hole. I don't mind a dog communicating, but I will not tolerate a dog being an a-hole for the sake of being an a-hole.

It's like this, I own a breed that has a tendency toward animal aggression. I do not correct them for defending themselves when provoked or challenged (I simply remove them from the situation), but I do not tolerate unwarranted aggression "just because."

 Quote: carol boche

Decide what you will tolerate and accept nothing less.

I do not allow growling and like you said, enforce it.

In regard to what another poster said about the dog communicating through this vocalization... I am aware of this. I am not correcting for simply making the vocalization, I am correcting for the behavior.

Holy smokes this thread has gotten a bit out of hand.

 Quote: lesya zaichenko

Holy smokes this thread has gotten a bit out of hand.

Nahhh, this is actually a great discussion and defines the purpose of this board. I am actually glad you posted.

I LOVE discussing dogs, dog training and issues like this. It beats the "what color looks best on my dog?" discussions by far....hee hee

 Quote: cameron feathers

 Quote: shannon reed

I see growling a bit different. A growl is a warning. If you tell the dog he cannot growl then the next option he has is action--biting/attacking.

Shannon

Absolutely agree with this.

Why exactly do you agree with this? Do you have experience with this issue or does the theory just sound valid enough to agree with???

If a dog growls and I dont want him to growl then he isn't going to growl. End of story. This doesn't simply open up the option for the dog to bite. Either the dog is going to bite or he isn't. The only thing that eliminating the growl does is eliminating the verbal warning that tells someone the dog wants to bite. There is other body language to read, ofcourse, that you cannot eliminate. The average person isn't perceptive enough to read it though, which is why there are so many "fluffy bit me and he gave no warning signs!" threads on this forum.

However, I say "pick your battles." Fighting with a dog over food aggression is pointless and only re-affirms to the dog that there is a reason to guard his food. But if the dog doesn't have it in him to follow through, then eliminating the growl won't make it so either. Not that I am saying you should eliminate the growl, but I am saying, if you were to do so for some odd reason.

 Quote: lesya zaichenko

The dog does not growl at me anymore-- it happened only a couple times and was nipped in the bud. Also, I believe that not all growling is stress. I do not bother the dog while he eats. I feel like you're painting me with a brush of being a tyrant. That is not the case.

Naw, I don't think of you as a tyrant at all. You asked a question about growling SPECIFICALLY related to food and I answered. I don't think ALL growling is stress, and I totally agree with you about not tolerating it. I was just referring to the orignal question and how I deal with food issues.

 Quote: lesya zaichenko

I think a good thing would be to agree to disagree here. You feed your dogs in an isolated area, I feed my dogs a different way. When I have multiple dogs in the house, I feed them in crates to prevent any skirmishes between dogs. I do not want to walk on eggshells with my dogs. They are incredibly adaptable animals-- mine eat where I tell them and do not see me as a threat. I will not stay out of the kitchen just because he is eating and I do not need to feed him in the crate because it is not necessary. He eats his food as soon as I give it to him and does not growl, ever. I do not go out of my way to illicit a response from him. When I first took him in he acted like a punk because that is how he was allowed to behave in his first home. He is now very settled in a structured household.

I''m glad that the issue resolved quickly, that is a great thing. Without the additional information, it is easy to not get a full picture of what is going on. With the original post you made, it was not easy to know this was a past issue, fully dealt with with no re-occurrence of the behavior. Sometimes things have to be dealt with in an "outside the box" way depending on the situation. Walking on eggshells is never good with dogs because it is asking for trouble! I'm glad that you have a situation that works well for you and your dogs. When you asked the question I wanted to point out that it is not only dominance that causes a dog to guard or growl over food, and that it was not exclusive to working type dogs to leave them alone while eating.

 Quote: lesya zaichenko

Holy smokes this thread has gotten a bit out of hand.

naw, different opinions are what make this thread so great. It's also a good reference for when you are trying to work through a specific issue. Those opinions can really help when you need to try a different approach.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

 Quote: Cameron Feathers

 Quote: Shannon Reed

I see growling a bit different. A growl is a warning. If you tell the dog he cannot growl then the next option he has is action--biting/attacking.

Shannon

Absolutely agree with this.

Why exactly do you agree with this? Do you have experience with this issue or does the theory just sound valid enough to agree with???

I have specific experience with this being the case. I have worked with dogs that had one negative behavior, and when the behavior itself was corrected and addressed the dog would start to do another equally (or worse) negative behavior. Usually it has been with dogs that have no real pack structure or leadership, and no respect for their owners. Once the overall respect and leadership is addressed, the dogs have stopped with the dominant behaviors because they no longer think they are in charge.

 Quote:

I have specific experience with this being the case. I have worked with dogs that had one negative behavior, and when the behavior itself was corrected and addressed the dog would start to do another equally (or worse) negative behavior. Usually it has been with dogs that have no real pack structure or leadership, and no respect for their owners. Once the overall respect and leadership is addressed, the dogs have stopped with the dominant behaviors because they no longer think they are in charge.

Wouldn't it have been more effective to start with the rank issues rather than the problematic behavior? If the rank issue had been addressed first then the dog wouldn't revert to a secondary aggressive behavior to begin with.

If someone locks the front door then I'll walk around to the back door, but if someone showed me where the key was I wouldn't have to go around back. Make sense?

Anyway, I guess thats out of the scope of this thread. I just find people agree with things said on forums a little too quickly without giving some thought to what is actually being implied. If everyone agrees to something untrue, it gives false credibility to it, which is then read by people who don't know much that then also think it's true.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Wouldn't it have been more effective to start with the rank issues rather than the problematic behavior? If the rank issue had been addressed first then the dog wouldn't revert to a secondary aggressive behavior to begin with.

Exactly. That is why I start with that first. Someone like you or I or others on this forum wouldn't necessarily have this problem, but I have seen this happen with some of the dogs that I work with because the underlying pack structure is not there. That is also why a lot of the people I work with have already had 3 or more "trainers" out there trying to fix the behavior, rather than addressing the actual problem (lack of structure/rank issues) Sometimes those trainers are actually the REASON the dog no longer growls, just simply bites. Those are the instances that I have seen that particular behavior, and why I said that I agreed it can happen.