i do need to work on that as well, though she's been doing better around strange dogs as i've just been avoiding going remotely near one as much as possible.

i was actually asking some of these questions on this thread earlier today http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/163788/Main/16962/#Post163788 but then we ended up discussing on here. but you're right, i have had issues w/corrections and the prong - to me, mostly when i come in a few seconds late - she will become more aggressive. i've ordered the DD collar and am really trying to watch to make sure my corrections are as proactive as possible (though i've actually got her on the martingale at the moment until i get the DD collar so that i don't have to worry about the prong breaking w/out a back-up. i don't love the martingale with her but we're doing alright with it (can't wait until the DD collar comes though!)

Jennifer,
I've been thinking about this for awhile today as I didn't have time to sit down to write out any thoughtful out reply. The first thing your questions brought to mind for me was; how old is Teagan, and what is her history? If I remember correctly she is a new dog to you isn't she?
Sounds to me she is a dog that many of us on this site would like to have. A self confident dog, willing to press the issue if someone is so inclined. And a handful for someone who has not had the pleasure of owning and gaining the trust of an independent, self sufficient dog willing to stand on her own. I'm envious, congradutations on your find. Hang in there. That being said, it also sounds to me like you should be looking for a helper/instructor that can evaluate Teagan and help you with the directions and limits you are willing to live with. Because from experience, I'll say that the dogs' dominance is hard wired, it's something that will always come up if any authority is left laying around and can get ugly for both you and dog, if not handled properly (that is not meant to scare you, only a warning. I know you're doing, and will continue to do what it takes. Kudos).
A good helper will be able to tell you alot about who and what Teagan is. It will be a small price to pay.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

















Edited by randy allen (11/19/2007 07:11 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

thanks randy, and thanks john too for all your thoughtful answers!

randy, teagan is 5 yrs old (that's approx, obvs) and i've had her for 3 weeks as of yesterday - not a long time at all. it's been interesting to see even during that time how her dominance/assertiveness has come out.
(though, she just sat nicely in the living room while my nosy cat sniffed her tail! this is progress, trust me!)

that's what i've been wondering - she is relatively dominant, and my impression has been that i can't 'rid' her of her dominant behaviours the way i corrected luc's aggressive late-night in the park behaviours, but that they are, as you say, hard-wired, and that it's a matter of me controlling them.

i must admit i enjoy her self-confidence and to some degree, i like how dominant she is, even though it makes handling her harder, b/c i kind of respect it - but it does bring a set of challenges, as you say.

i've actually been looking for someone who could help with training - i don't know if you know what happened w/the trainers i was taking luc too, who were recommended by a local SchH club and a couple of people on a GSD board - they do regular dog training along w/SchH and PPD - but the one trainer told me, after luc mouthed me while i was trying to ice a sore paw, and he got upset when i scruffed him (as suggested by them) that i should deliberately provoke his aggression and then essentially beat him down in a display of physical dominance - i wasn't really comfortable w/that idea and ppl on this board were very supportive that it was in fact a terrible idea - but now i'm left wondering where to take the dogs too!

....i had found another trainer who apparently breeds PSD and trains SchH but when i'd spoken to her (months ago) she sounded like she thought luc was a frothing at the mouth danger (due to growling at ppl when i wasn't paying attention and we were alone in the park at night). that, combined w/me googling her and finding articles in which she was quoted saying she refused to train pit bulls b/c they were dangerous dogs made me go....hmmmm....not impressed.

and pretty well every other trainer is a 'happy halti' trainer that i can find! there was one other trainer i will have to heavily google to find again that may work. or perhaps i should ask the other toronto-area SchH club if they have any suggestions....heh. b/c i want a trainer that will be okay with tools like the prong and be okay with using positive reinforcement and corrections, and in a city the size of toronto, this is startling hard to find.

....but i would like help w/teagan. things are going well so far, but she is very obviously a more challenging dog, and i enjoy that, but i also know my previous experience has been limited to luc, who really is a very lovely dog and eager to please. polar opposite of teagan personality wise.

i do know i have to be assertive about my dominance with her, but i've also settled into my routine w/luc and i know that won't entirely work w/her. she's a great dog, and we are doing well so far - but i'm not sure, how far can i let her go, how strict to i have to be w/boundaries? i'm trying to be strict now since we're still in a new phase and i know she hasn't entirely accorded me the alpha spot (though we've come a long way from her rearing up and around and pawing me on the shoulder....oh i corrected that!) , so i'm trying to be strict now, i don't know if i'll always have to, etc....things that having an experienced person evaluate her would be really helpful with.

if anyone knows of any good trainers in toronto, please PM me! i won't name the trainers i was using here (actually, i still haven't 'fired' them b/c i'm a wimp, i'm so sure they'll tell me i don't know what i'm talking about.....luc and i just haven't gone to our lessons in about 6 weeks now....

edit, b/c my post wasn't long enough already: in terms of her history, i got her from toronto animal services, she was there about 3 weeks? a bit over? when i called about her they told me they got her through an eviction, when i actually adopted her, they told me they got her as a stray, but added she had lived with another GSD before (how they could know that about a stray i don't know, i'm certain she did come through from an eviction and it just sounded nicer to say stray....i sometimes feel guilty if she's wondering what happened to her old family - she was spayed, and she's in good condition, so someone obviously cared for her.

Jennifer,

You have the right attitude. Just focus on being fair, firm, consistent and her leader. Three weeks is nothing, I just adopted a 3.5 year old working line male just over 3 weeks ago. It took about two weeks for his personality to really come out, and another week or so to really be comfortable working with me, and this was with daily drive building and focus sessions. The third time out to my club (last Saturday)he was able to hold on to a bite pillow the helper was holding while I touched him. I was tickled he was getting comfortable with me that quickly. If you cannot find the trainer you want, maybe aproach a training director or seasoned helper at a Schutzhund club and ask if they could work with you on an individual basis. A "happy halti" trainer used to working with whatever designer mutt is "in" currently and golden retrievers is going to be over their heads with her. You want someone used to working with real dogs, just not one that will tell you to alpha roll her.

thanks john!

it's going to take a while with her, absolutely, and she is progressing bit by bit, which is good. the timeline you mention - two weeks for your dogs personality to come out - very similar to teagan, so that's actually nice to hear

i looked a bit for trainers when i first got teagan, and got annoyed and gave up, but i've started looking again.

if i don't find a good match, that's a good idea about approaching someone from a SchH club. i originally looked for a trainer recommended through a SchH club b/c i figured they wouldn't be upset my GSD wasn't a golden....

edit: having gotten into a fight w/luc, who is way softer/more submissive than teagan, i shudder - shudder! - at the thought of alpha rolling her. OUCH.

Yeah Jennifer, I'd forgotten about that fiasco with Luc and your last instructor. Good job to walk away from that piece of work.
Back to the present issues, one can find small groups of like minded people in the oddest places. For instance the group I work with now I found out about at a tracking club meeting, once a week we pool some money to pay a helper to work our dogs and to learn from. When I got my new dog a little over a year ago now, my breeder told me of a french ring club that met twice a week (very short money), but I never took to the helper for some reason. He seemed good, but we never clicked, too bad to, it is much closer and cheaper than my present venue.
If I were to be starting from scratch (so to speak) I'd call some breeders (working line breeders), I'd ask some police k9 officers the name of their breeders and the name of who they use for helpers and decoys, some of those helpers often work with small groups like the one I use and it may be the only way for you to find them.
But how ever good these leads are or are not, don't give up on looking for the right person, it makes all the difference.
Hang in there, as you said, Toronto is a big place, there has to be more then one or two instructors in the area. They're just waiting for you to find them is all.

Hope this helps,
Randy

thanks randy! i appreciate the encouragement, and the suggestions....i'd never have thought of approaching breeders or police k9 officers re: the helpers they use. hopefully i do find someone, it's just so much more difficult than i expected!

Just got back from our afternoon stroll, and while on said walk I thought of something I think is absolutely brilliant. Everybody else may think it's lame but I'll trot it out to see if it flys. It relates to Teagans' history, you say she seems to be relearning old ob. commands she hasn't used in a long time. What if she's a fully trained dog! Only English isn't her language! Have you tried any commands in German or French? Dutch or Italian?
Wouldn't it be cool if she was some lost Mondio champion and all you'd need to unlock her is the language?

Just a thought.
Randy

and here i'm thinking she's just being snotty about whether i'm good enough to tell her what to do! i'll have to try 'platz' tonight and report back....though i'm betting on her being snotty (though it'd be cool if she were a long-lost mondio champion....heh)

....the rescue i got luc from took him out of a shelter in quebec, once on a hike one of the guys was from quebec as well and was excited luc was and tried to see if he knew french. he kept saying 'Assis! Assis! Assis!' while luc stared at him with rapt expectancy and an 'OMG OMG OMG this guy is talking to me this is SO cool OMG OMG WOO HOO!' expression on his face, standing the entire time and wriggling his whole bum. francois gave up and said 'SIT!' and bam! down went luc into a sit.

I see no ethical dilema about channeling a dog's natural ability or instinct to do what you want.

If my pup "sounds an alarm" (Serious Barking or a Growl), I pay attention. I acknowledge that he has done so, check out whatever is distressing him, and then tell him it is okay.

Usually what is distressing him is a small animal somewhere near our house (cat, squirrel, skunk, raccoon, et cetera). However, more importantly, Sometimes it is something that is "out of place" to him. A car parked where there is usually NONE; Trash Bags put out in unusual places from previous trash collection days; An unfamiliar person coming to our door. I didn't train him to be this way. My only requirement is that after I check it out and tell him that it is okay, that he settle down.

If your dog has an ability to react to situations, and you want to develop it, then I see nothing wrong. If you know how to train it into him ... and it is not UNKIND to do so, then I still don't see anything wrong with it.

I don't think a dog has to be a PPD in order to provide you with the comfort and security that you seem to be looking for.

Good Luck!