I agree with Mike too.

BTW, I grew up around National Champion Field Trial Pointers so I'm familiar with 'culling' pups and only breeding the best to the best. I've studied some about chicken breeding; any good breeding program is cruel and heartless.

Philosophically I am of Mike's Mind in regard to what has happened to the breed.

Who knows, I might be a Stockman Extraordinaire?

Is there a list of breeders who meets the criteria to be called a True Stockman? Who has an 'Extreme Breeding' Program with 'hard' dogs for a big and strong man?

Jim
If you have the means to do so, then why not look to Europe for what you are looking for.
Good Bred Dogs are Cheaper over here than the USA by what i have read, Of course there are Good Breeders in the USA
i once mentioned about this fact on a thread when i first joined leerburg forum i too was taken aback by the Con artists over there in the USA, But then of course there would be some over this side of the water as well and again the USA is so big there would be more chance of being done as we say,
but overall i think you will get more for your Dollar over here with some of the Top breeders.

Con artists are a fact of life in dogs, horses, or anything else of that special-purpose nature. A big part of the conning in Europe is inflated prices for buyers outside of the EU. "1000 Euros to anyone inside the EU, 2100 euros to anyone else, including the 350 euros we'll spend on shipping". I've come accross several big name breeders who just churn out puppies almost specifically intended to be sold to the USA for the sake of making money. Quality suffers because they just want to fill orders, and not really focus on breeding what should be bred.

When it comes to adult dogs, usually the dogs nobody in Europe wants will get sold to the US. I hear this phrase all the time, "its a waste of a good dog to send him to the US". Crappy mentality, but its just true, hands down.

At the end of the day, you just need to find a breeder that you are comfortable with, and bring someone along who understands dogs. I've also met breeders who can talk anyone into believing their dogs are just completely phenomenal, until you actually see the dogs and want to cry.

I was mentioned in Mike Schoonbrood's response to this topic. He used the word "enlightened" when describing my experience and how intense a real working dog can be. That is putting it mildly. It has been a very interesting adjustment for me. I've owned working dogs my whole life. I am no spring chicken. I can honestly say I was totally unprepared for what I was going to encounter with this super hard high drive male Dutch Shepherd pup that I have now. This dog will start biting me half way through a 5 minute training session. He needed a ecollar and dominant dog collar at 4 months old. With the d.d. collar he tends to just hold his breath to not get choked. My hands looked like "Shredded Wheat" until he lost his puppy teeth. He is 7 months old now and will come up the leash at me if I'm not careful. I'm still trying to establish rank with him and other family members. I am still the only one that can handle him. I worry about what would get happen if I get sick and can't care for him. The breeder tells me about dogs returned to him because people can't deal with the them in a home environment. I have plenty of toys but he will stand there and bark at me after a few minutes ready for something more to do. I've PM'ed Mike and Cindy Rhodes about handling this pup. After working with this pup, I totally agree with everything Mike wrote in his response. I have a heck of dog on my hands. It's a rare breeder that will breed these type dogs. I am prepared now for everything this dog can dish out. The learning curve was substantial for someone like me who thought they could handle working dogs. He is a extremely eager learner and is biting the helper with a vengeance at 7 months old. Sit, down, stay, recall is perfect in this pup. This dog is the best dog I've owned but he certainly isn't for everyone.

Jim, my advise is to take it slow. Look at the risk and liabilities of owning working-dogs. Buying 2 puppies to breed in the future is a crap shoot. You might get two strong dogs in the future but more likely you will not. The odds are not in your favor. I'd recommend you go visit Randy Hare's training facilities in Jackson. Talk to him. He can help you find adult GSD's that can do the work. If, I were interested in breeding quality GSD's in Mississippi. I'd study bloodlines and traits that produced the desired dogs. I would focus on finding titled or green females. There are several quality studs in driving distance (Dallas to Atlanta and in between.)

My biggest regret in returning from Germany where I lived for several years was not bringing back some German Shepherds with me.

My affection for the breed was intensified in seeing these dogs in Germany; my employer owned one.

I had hoped to avoid the shipping and the weak dollar . . .

Jim,

I am glad I asked for clarification from you prior to jumping on you for what I thought was a "I want to breed to make money without regard to anything else" post. You seem to understand that this is a process, and will take time and effort. Here is what I would suggest... you want working line GSD's, and you want them specifically for real world protection and you want to reproduce that ability into litters of pups. That is LOTS and LOTS of work. The only way to accomplish this effectively is work dogs. Breeders that do not work their dogs lose the ability to be hands on in regards to the genetic temperment they are trying to create. Even Ed Frawley gets a lot of grief in the GSD world for no longer being as active in titling his breeding stock even though he has been doing this forever and is extremely skilled and knowledgeable (and the dogs WORK, anyone that doesn't believe is welcome to come out to my club and see Steve's and my dog who are out of two of Ed's most recent breedings with untitled Dam's). Having a dog that is protection trained takes a lot of effort, time, and money. First off, finding a puppy that will grow up to be what you want is a crapshoot. Then you will be putting in two years worth of training before the dog is ready to be what you want, and that is the most "inexpensive" route even though you have to buy the puppy ($1,000+) and then pay for club dues, all the gas to get there and back, proper nutrition, vet bills, and all of the health testing you will need to do in order to breed responsibly. Even then, you may find a pup to work in the manner you need but he may not be suitable to breed. Adults with a foundation laid for protection who are breed worthy and have had most health certs done would be the best way to start, but that will depend on your resources because that will be big $$$, and even then you need somewhere to train and work them. On top of that, you need to learn genetics and pedigrees which will play a factor on breeding but not as much as actually working the dogs and recognizing what you have and what you want to reproduce in a litter.

The best suggestion I can give you is seek out the nearest SchH club and start there. Ideally, you want to find a small breeder that is working dogs that you can learn from and train with, and this is not easy. It's much easier to get scammed while looking to get started than it is to have success.

Mike
Your assessement of the Europeon Dog Breeders is a bit harsh, The way i read it is that you have met some who take advantage of the fact the Citizens of the USA will pay more than say the likes of myself.
From what i see on USA sites of the price of Pups is a bit hard on the People who buy them over there, and i mentioned this in a post months ago
I will find out the Costs of well bred G.S Pups which go to the USA and see if they charge a huge amount more than say if i was buying one.
As far as i can see is this, I for one would not import a very young Pup abroad as far as the USA, until it got a bit older.
Plus i will enquire to other Breeders over here as to the costs and these will be genuine breeders of the G.S Dogs
As far as i can see and i expect Breeders over this side of the water think the same, I would not export a weaned Pup to the USA at that age,
Not that it is possible to do so what with vaccinations etc, but even then i would expect it to be older and stronger for the journey, So all this looking after has to be paid for and this is extra to the Base Cost of a Pup
Plus if it was me selling to the USA whist i have the pup here i would give it as much training as it warrented at that age, then as you say the freight charges but only the base Cost is involved really all the other bits is out of the control of the breeder regards the costs
I would have asked the Trainer who helps us with our Dogs and Breeder of Goran my baby Pup, He is a very reputable Breeder of G.S Dogs
But he is once again in the USA helping with training and working with some people and their G.S Dogs, hes only been home from the USA a couple of weeks

Steve, it is very normal for a 10 week old pup to fly to the US. They have no issues with it at all. It used to be 8 weeks, but most airlines bumped up the limit to 10 now. I know Delta is now 10 weeks.

There are good people in the dog world too, don't get me wrong. But con artists are abundant in Europe, US, everywhere, when it comes to dogs. If you go to most Schutzhund clubs in Germany as an American you'll have lots of people trying to sell you their dog with a "ahhhh look American, I can sell him my dog for alot more than I'd get in Germany" attitude. Just spend some time around dog dealers, its pretty harsh.

There is a Malinois kennel in Belgium who shall remain un-named. I walk in there and there's puppies everywhere. I even question if they can tell which pup came from which litter. Pups are still together with littermates at 4+ months old instead of being seperated at 8 weeks old like they're supposed to.

There is a GSD kennel in Holland who shall remain un-named. Very good GSD kennel, breeds phenomenal dogs with high reputation. If I said the name everyone would know who it was. My friend emails him in the US asking for a price on a pup. He gets told $3000. I e-mail for a price and I get told 1000 euros (less than $1400 at the time). There's no way it costs $1600 to ship the pup to the US. When I mentioned to him that I was inquiring for my friend in the US, he was annoyed and told me, no, $3000 for anyone outside EU.

These things are not uncommon. Not all breeders are that way, I know that. But alot of them are.

I mean seriously. Lets say you are a breeder and you have 3 people in your local club that want a pup, and 2 people in the US. Who do you give the better pups? The people who you see every week at the club who will yell at you if you give them the worst of the litter, or the people who are 5000 miles away??? It's common sense!

If you buy a pup from Europe, NEVER BUY SIGHT UNSEEN, unless you have someone reliable who can evaluate the litter for you. Preferably someone local who can find out for you what the "Outside of EU" markup is.

And thats just breeders. Don't get me started on dog dealers. I saw it on a monthly basis. You fly to Europe, you get good dogs. You ask them to send you a dog, the first one is good. Then you ask for another dog, and they unload their reject dog on you, with the hopes that you won't spend the money to ship the dog back. I know someone who got sent a Showline GSD from a guy in Holland, a guy who has had good reviews by people on THIS FORUM. I went into the kennel where the showline was, and he was at the back of the kennel tucking his tail growling at me. The dog took weeks to like his new owners. The dog pooped in the garage when I had to leash him a month after he'd come into the country.

I went to visit a dog dealer in Holland looking for Malinois suitable for police. They showed me 6 Mal's. 5 of them were complete junk, the 6th looked really good. Then I told their decoy to drop the sleeve on the ground... the Mal hid behind the handlers legs with his tail tucked because the decoy wasn't wearing a sleeve. I was offended that they even showed me dogs like this. Again, these people have a TOP reputation in Holland as dog dealers. Also to remain un-named.

Steve, you are around good people, you are training with Rinus Bastiaansen, but there are ALOT of people who will screw you in the dog business. Just ask anyone who's been around working dogs for any length of time.

My best word of advice to anyone looking to buy a dog ANYWHERE, US, Europe, Japan, Phillipines, wherever.... GO LOOK AT THE DOG FOR YOURSELF. If you dont know what to look for, bring someone else with you who does. This goes for Breeders, Dog Dealers, private individuals, you name it. The worst thing that happens is when people buy dogs cheap from families who bought a working dog, but the dog turned out to be too much for them to handle. Then the person turns around and sells the dog for 10x what he paid and the families never know where their dog went. There's pages of posts on a dutch classified site where people are trying to locate dogs that went missing this way.